17-09-2004 14:33									#91
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm imposing my moral code when I refuse to assist a suicide too. Your point?

If your job is to assist a suicide, then yes, you'd be in the wrong, IMHO. It's like saying "I want to be a soldier, but I won't kill someone". It's part of the job. If you don't want to kill someone, don't be a soldier. If you don't want to dispense prescription medication, don't be a pharmacist.

	18-09-2004 08:02									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Thank god I'm not a woman. I'd be self-hitting it 24/7

The women are also glad you're not one.

I have nothing to add, except that if I want an abortion, for whatever reason, it is not your business to say whether or not you think I should get it. If you don't agree with it, congratulations, have a frickin cookie. Not that I could ever go through with an abortion, but for those that would, outlawing it will do nothing but make them go to shady doctors with no qualifications to perform abortions, and the women run a greater risk of health problems afterwards. What a wonderful idea!

	18-09-2004 08:05									#93
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quote: Many pharacists here own their own store. You're going to require a business to carry products they are vehemently against? What do you do to doctors who refuse to perform abortions?

Hopefully nothing.

But if there are women who can't get access to medical services they are entitled to by law, then it's licence yanking time. Doctors are there to provide a service to the community, not to indulge their own religious prejudices.

	18-09-2004 08:08									#94
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Oh and

@ Che's comment.

Major pwnage.

	18-09-2004 08:15									#95
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I don't really understand why person A refusing to help person B have an abortion is person A IMPOSING their ideology on person B. Person B can still get the abortion, just not with A's cooperation. If the law were to the contrary, where person A was FORCED against their will in assisting in the abortion, then I can clearly see that person B has IMPOSED their ideology on person A.

It seems, therefor, that the people who are complaining the loudest about some imposition of ideology are the very people trying to do it.

	18-09-2004 08:16									#96
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Not really.

It was an easy setup, I was willing to toss out to the first person that wanted it.

	18-09-2004 08:19									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Potassium The women are also glad you're not one. I have nothing to add, except that if I want an abortion, for whatever reason, it is not your business to say whether or not you think I should get it. If you don't agree with it, congratulations, have a frickin cookie. Not that I could ever go through with an abortion, but for those that would, outlawing it will do nothing but make them go to shady doctors with no qualifications to perform abortions, and the women run a greater risk of health problems afterwards. What a wonderful idea!

Sweet, if you want to murder someone, that's nobody else's business.

	18-09-2004 08:20									#98
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quote: I don't really understand why person A refusing to help person B have an abortion is person A IMPOSING their ideology on person B.

And the state forces its ideology on medical practitioners all the time by preventing them from doing certain things and by making them do certain others.

If people have a problem with this, they shouldn't become doctors.

As I said, compelling people to perform abortions is a last resort, but it is a necessary last resort.

John Irving wrote a good novel about this, called The Cider House Rules.

	18-09-2004 08:21									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Not really. It was an easy setup, I was willing to toss out to the first person that wanted it.

Yes, I know.

	18-09-2004 08:22									#100
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quote: The women are also glad you're not one.

That comment could be taken any number of ways. Hmmm....

	18-09-2004 08:23									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Not really. It was an easy setup, I was willing to toss out to the first person that wanted it.

Like it's not true for every guy in the world anyway.

	18-09-2004 08:24									#102
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quote: Like it's not true for every guy in the world anyway.

Not for me. I have a wife for all that stuff.

	18-09-2004 08:26									#103
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Most guys still self-hit it even when they have a healthy sex-life with a partner.

Remember, you need at least 21 orgasms a month for good prostate health.

	18-09-2004 08:27									#104
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quote: Most guys still self-hit it even when they have a healthy sex-life with a partner.

Only those men of low virtue who tend to the squalid.

	18-09-2004 08:28									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue If your job is to assist a suicide, then yes, you'd be in the wrong, IMHO. It's like saying "I want to be a soldier, but I won't kill someone". It's part of the job. If you don't want to kill someone, don't be a soldier. If you don't want to dispense prescription medication, don't be a pharmacist.

One, soldiers (even volunteers) may become conscientious objectors, and may not be forced to kill people.

Two, pharmacists do a whole lot other than dispense abortive substances. That profession is one that a lot of people have decided they would like to persue as a career for various reasons. Most of those people started their careers before abortion drugs were ever heard of. They should have no opinion and just mindlessly follow 'orders'? Even if they own their own shop?

Three, what about doctors who don't perform abortions? Should they change professions? How are they different from pharmacists?

	18-09-2004 08:31									#106
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quote: One, soldiers (even volunteers) may become conscientious objectors, and may not be forced to kill people.

Fair enough. No one has to stay a pharmacist.

quote: Three, what about doctors who don't perform abortions? Should they change professions?

If such a sanction is required to make sure that all woman have access to legal procedures, then yes. If not, no.

	18-09-2004 08:32									#107
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quote: Remember, you need at least 21 orgasms a month for good prostate health.

Research no doubt funded by Larry Flynt.

Perhaps we should petition Markos to change the post submission screen to girly pics - "here is something to **** about while you wait".

It'd keep the dialup users mellow.

	18-09-2004 08:33									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Hopefully nothing. But if there are women who can't get access to medical services they are entitled to by law, then it's licence yanking time. Doctors are there to provide a service to the community, not to indulge their own religious prejudices.

I think when a majority of a community refuses to go along with a government, there is probably something wrong with the government. Usually.

Again, where are there any doctors being called up for failing to perform abortions? Why are pharmasists different?

	18-09-2004 08:35									#109
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quote: I think when a majority of a community refuses to go along with a government, there is probably something wrong with the government. Usually.

Of course this requires an arbitrary definition of a "community".

Southern communities didn't want to go along with civil rights - I guess that their racist and moronic ideas were the government's fault. I'd have been happy if the Feds shot some of their asses.

	18-09-2004 08:37									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If such a sanction is required to make sure that all woman have access to legal procedures, then yes. If not, no.

Pish. You are saying that doctors in isolated communities should be forced to perform acts that they could not live with.

You may as well be advocating that everyone turn in escaped slaves, no matter how repulsive the concept of slavery was to them.

	18-09-2004 08:38									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course this requires an arbitrary definition of a "community". Southern communities didn't want to go along with civil rights - I guess that their racist and moronic ideas were the government's fault. I'd have been happy if the Feds shot some of their asses.

Actually, there was a community other than the white one. That was the point.

	18-09-2004 08:40									#112
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quote: Pish. You are saying that doctors in isolated communities should be forced to perform acts that they could not live with.

I care more about women's access to health care than I do about the opinions of doctors.

They already have to follow rules. If they don't like it, they can find some other job. It is just like pacifists joining the army.

quote: You may as well be advocating that everyone turn in escaped slaves, no matter how repulsive the concept of slavery was to them.

Hardly, there is no moral equivalence. In the case of slavery human rights are being violated. That is not the case in requiring doctors to set aside their religious convictions in the face of the law.

	18-09-2004 08:45									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I care more about women's access to health care than I do about the opinions of doctors. They already have to follow rules. If they don't like it, they can find some other job. It is just like pacifists joining the army. Hardly, there is no moral equivalence. In the case of slavery human rights are being violated. That is not the case in requiring doctors to set aside their religious convictions in the face of the law.

So, when fascists take over, and they require only certain philosophy to be taught, you will say 'I quit'? What exactly would you be standing for if you ran so easily?

This takes on the tones of 'my country right or wrong'.

And you miss the real point. The people who object do so because they believe the life to be human, and they do so not necessarily for religious reasons.

	18-09-2004 08:56									#114
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Lots of crazy people believe crazy things. Everyone can have their own opinions, not their own facts.

	18-09-2004 09:05									#115
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quote: So, when fascists take over, and they require only certain philosophy to be taught, you will say 'I quit'? What exactly would you be standing for if you ran so easily?

Nope.

If someone sincerely wishes to appeal to liberal (Rawlsian) principles of justice to ground religious freedoms, they have by that very appeal admitted that liberal principles of justice have primacy over religious beliefs when conflicts occur.

The Liberal conception of justice simply does not permit slavery, so your earlier comparison misses its target.

The religious doctor who refuses to give a person medical treatment because of his or her beliefs acts unjustly because it is within the purvey of liberal principles of justice to require certain actions of people who enter certain professions as a means of ensuring that justice is done to others.

	18-09-2004 09:07									#116
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Of course, I should also add, that it is unjust to force a doctor to act against their religious beliefs when the service can be provided by somebody else. It is only when it cannot be provided by somebody else that the state has the right to compel it.

	18-09-2004 09:08									#117
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if I was woman, I'd be preggo all the time and aborting the mission just to piss of men, who steal the good jobs from me if I was a woman, and who make me sex objects of their desire, and then I also would say I go put something more comfortable on when in reality I would go pee just before kick off and make them go down on me..

	18-09-2004 09:20									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nope. If someone sincerely wishes to appeal to liberal (Rawlsian) principles of justice to ground religious freedoms, they have by that very appeal admitted that liberal principles of justice have primacy over religious beliefs when conflicts occur. The Liberal conception of justice simply does not permit slavery, so your earlier comparison misses its target. The religious doctor who refuses to give a person medical treatment because of his or her beliefs acts unjustly because it is within the purvey of liberal principles of justice to require certain actions of people who enter certain professions as a means of ensuring that justice is done to others.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course, I should also add, that it is unjust to force a doctor to act against their religious beliefs when the service can be provided by somebody else. It is only when it cannot be provided by somebody else that the state has the right to compel it.

What's really funny here is that you are combining arguing for 'liberalism' with overrunning matters of individual conscience. HARR HARR.

	18-09-2004 11:05									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And the state forces its ideology on medical practitioners all the time by preventing them from doing certain things and by making them do certain others. If people have a problem with this, they shouldn't become doctors. As I said, compelling people to perform abortions is a last resort, but it is a necessary last resort. John Irving wrote a good novel about this, called The Cider House Rules.

Forcing doctors to perform abortions is NECESSARY?!!!! --- in order that doctors not force their ideology down on women?

WOW! WOW! WOW!

	20-09-2004 07:57									#120
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quote: Then no problem. But when someone goes to the only hospital in the area and needs an abortion to save their own life, they shouldn't die just because the religious fundamentalist is working that night.

Ectopic pregnancies are the only case that would qualify, and abortion is necessary because neither mother nor baby will survive if nothing is done.