27-09-2004 00:34									#31
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Because of my nasty experience with the Mongols in the last game, I decided to use this large-continent start to go hut-busting and civ-wiping, preserving only the Orange civ as a pet before I settle my One City. The strategy worked pretty well for the first 1500 years, except I could not find Orange! I finally decided to keep Purple around and settle nearby. I settled in that river system northwest of LittleBig, got 3 TRs to LB and grew to size 12. I surrounded the Sioux with my NONE army, permitting them 3 cities. I am now researching MT for Cathedral before I restart WLing again. With a pet civ I can deliver occasional caravans, but they are useless for tech slaving. Another thing I have noticed is that they have not even tried to start a single Wonder, despite being gifted all the relevant techs. Perhaps there is a minimum number of cities before the AI starts Wonders? Perhaps the Sioux don't favor Wonders? I am puzzled...

	27-09-2004 21:18									#32
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An OCC with a pet AI! It seems the Mongols made you indeed angry in the last game.

I wonder if that has been played before? No wonders, little tech trade, no gifts, later start. On the other hand a better city site were the Romans were and more time to finish if needed (oh, and no interference with your qualified trade routes).

Sounds still tough! I´d say one of the best OCC players needed an even bigger challenge

Keep us informed.

Zenon

	01-10-2004 01:14									#33
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If we didn't have the "win by spaceship" requirement I could have conquered the world without building or capturing a city in the upper 'teens... I was setting up to eliminate the Sioux when I realized there was no Orange civ. Twice I held back from taking a city of size 2 whose flag was down so that it could build a defender and get razed. Once the Egyptians built a Warrior and expended him against an Elephant next door, leaving the city undefended for a further two turns. Sigh...

	01-10-2004 23:03									#34
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I finished my game with an 835 AD landing, earlier than in my most optimistic estimations. The robust approach turned out to be a good way to overcome the lack of an SSC. The missing happiness wonders were compensated by very unhappy citizens and use of the lux slider from establishing Republic onwards. My 30 cities allowed 1 tech a turn at the end of the industrial age. But the best improvement I had was a size 12 colony on continent 1. With coal, spices and oil demand and some deliveries of its own trade became excellent and allowed 10 consecutive turns with 2 advances each. Quite a difference to the half starved first parts of the game. The colony alone saved appr. 10 turns. While I am happy that the overall strategy worked so nicely, I am also convinced that there were several parts were I could have done better. However, the game was fun! The log:


New Apolyton Tounament, 09/2004
Small Map, Zulu, 835 AD Landing
Starting Techs: Alphabeth, Bonce Working, CB

BC
3950 hut: 50g
3800 Zimbabwe
3750 Ulundi
3650 Code of Laws
3400 Monarchy, hut: archer
3250 Monarchy established
3100 Writing, hut: archer, hut: Mystizism

I have to adapt my strategy. The techs needed next are Trade, Map Making and Republic, but there is no need to rush for these techs. With Monarchy established I switch to 70 gold, 30 science to expand faster. Without SSC the game will take a long time and there will be plenty of trading opportunities once contact is made with all AI.

3050 Romans, mighty, cordial, peace, alliance denied, we are probably supreme
2800 Bapedi (3rd)
2750 hut: ruins
2700 Sioux, peace,
2650 Germans, peace; Hlobane (4th)
2600 Isandhlwana (5th)
Strange map. All the water I have found so far is inland sea with different numbers.
2550 Hut: none horse
2350 Hut: 100g
2300 Romans: Embassy, trade for Currency, 25g tribute
2200 Map Making, Romans, give Map Making; Germans: give Map Making and Writing, maps; Sioux: give Map Making and Writing, maps

Continent 2 is large. Only 4 AI so far. To the North and between Sioux and Romans there is finally the ocean in sight. Not much hope there is an AI on a different continent. But at least there could be a place for a colony on an island. Continent 1 is still missing.

2150 Romans: maps,
2050 Hut: 50g, hut: ruins
2000 Hut: none horse
1900 Egyptians: peace, give Writing, Mystizism, maps,
1850 hut: barbarians, Intombe (6th),
1700 Mpondo (7th), unhappy citizen in cities 7, 5 and 2, more than expected, Mpondo is not the best site (might be better when a special in the North is uncovererd), but it has a harbour at the ocean
1650 Trade, Ngome (8th), UC in 4 and 1, like Mpondo, with a harbour to the ocean, this time to the North
1600 hut: legion,
1550 hut: settler, Egyptians: Embassy
1500 Germans: Embassy, Romans: trade for Construction, 75g, Germans: give Construction, no tribute, Egyptians: give Construction, 75g; Sioux: maps
1450 Sioux: give Construction, 150g, Egyptians, Germans, give Monarchy,
1400 Germans: no tribute, Egyptians: maps
1100 Swazi (9th), hut: Horseback Riding L , an unwanted tech. So far the hut results were below average.
1050 Tugela (10th), all cities now with 1 unhappy citizen, Germans: maps, Continent 1 discovered
1000 Hut: none chariot, Romans: give Monarchy, no tribute
975 Sioux: Embassy, Continent 1 is small. But it will do for a colony. 2 fish, glacier oil, 3 plains, 3 forests and ocean. Well, “continent” 4 doesn´t even have a fish. Now I have to get a settler there asap. The grasslands West both of Sioux and Romans look promising.
950 Hut: none legion
925 Egyptians: Trade for Literacy, 100g; hut 25g, hut 50g, hut: Umtata (11th).

With the 11th city expansion is on hold under Monarchy. The only exception: My future colony on continent 1.

900 Philosophy, Republic,
850 Romans: trade for Seafaring, give Republic, 75g, Sioux: give Republic, maps
825 Germans: trade for Bridge Building, give Republic,
800 Hut: none settler
775 dye Zimbabwe Rome (d) 72g, gold Ulundi Rome 26g, Umfolozi (12th) on continent 1
750 Romans: give Mystizism, Sioux give tech, maps
725 The Wheel, Romans: give Philosophy,
650 Germans: 100g
625 dye Ulundi Little Big Horn (d) 64g,
575 Sioux: give tech
550 Romans: trade for Banking, Sioux: give tech, maps,
500 Germans: trade for Mathematics
450 Engineering, dye Ishandlwana Leipzig (d) 92g, dye Hlobane Veii (d) 26g, copper Zimbabwe Rome (d) 96g, Germans: trade for Astronomy, maps, Egyptians: give Republic, Philosophy, 50g
425 copper Bapedi LBH (d) 60g, sioux: give tech
375 Romans: trade for Medicine

Phase 2 of the build up. Without happiness wonders Republic had to be prepared for a long time. All of the initial 12 cities now have a temple, 11 are at size 3. 3 cities are celebrating. Not many yet, but I don´t want to wait longer with 10 settlers allready waiting to found a city. Under republic I want as many cities as possible. New settings: tax 60 lux 40

350 Ibabanago (13th), Isipezi (14th), Amatikulu (15th), Zunguin (16th), West Harbour (17th), Issia (18th), Cunia (19th),
325 Republic established, Cerea (20th), Cania (21st)
300 Meridum (22nd),
250 dye Zimbabwe LBH (d) 100g, Romans: give Horseback Riding, egyptians: give techs, give Medicine, Sioux: give techs, give Literacy,
225 University, wine Intombe Leipzig (d)114g, cloth Mpondo Rome (d)114g, gems Ulundi Hamburg (d) 204g,
200 Chemistry, spices Isandhl. Memphis (d) 184g
175 beads Ngome LBH 50g,
150 beads Bapedi Rome (d) 160g,
125 Economics, gems Hlobane Rome 60g
50 silk Swazi Veii (d)108g, Turoga (23rd), Germans: give Seafaring
25 wine Umtata Memphis (d) 74g

AD
1 beads Ish. Antium (d) 176g, beads Hlobane Veii (d) 54g
20 Invention, we enter the Renaissance. Beads Umfolozi Rome 70g, dye Tugela Rome 44g, dye Umtata LBH (d) 44g
40 Empra (24th),
60 copper Ngome Antium (d) 36g,
100 salt Intombe Rome (d) 100g, cloth Bapedi Rome (d) 150g
I was waiting for Navigation and the cash was still needed. But none of the 3 AI researching it did me the favour. I should have researched faster myself.
120 Navigation, silver Ibabanago Memphis (d) 44g, beads Tugela Rome 50g, copper Swazi Rome 52g, Romans, Germans, Sioux: give Navigation, Egyptians give Horseback Riding
140 copper Mpondo Berlin (d) 106g, salt Umfolozi Thebes (d) 88g, hut: 50g
160 Romans: trade for Democracy. With Pyramids and a lot of trade routes, the Romans have become good researchers, but they are always in my own tech path instead of researching something else like Feudalism or Theory of Gravity
180 Physics, hides Cunia LBH (d) 40g, gems Umfolozi Rome 66g, beads Mpondo Rome 36g, hut: 50g, Romans: trade for Iron Working
200 Steam Engine,
220 Democracy established,
240 coal Swazi Rome 63g, spices Zunguin LBH (d) 117g,
260 Railroads, copper Ibabanago Rome 40g,
280 hides Cania LBH (d) 47g, beads Cunia Rome 22g, hut 50g
300 Magnetism, Kretara (25th), copper Isipezi Rome 26g
320 Verlo (26th)

340 Industrialization, Sioux: give techs, maps, copper Amatikulu LBH (d) 60g, gold Zunguin Rome 20g, dye Umtata Rome 19g, hides Issia LBH (d) 40g, hut: none settler, dye Cania Berlin (d) 88g

360 Corporation, copper Intombe Rome 43g, Sala (27th), Lisra (28th), Hamria (29th), Folota (30th), more helpers to allow celebration. Egyptians: give tech, maps, Germans: trade for Gun Powder, probably the last tech trade, Romans: give railroads, maps, Sioux: give techs, maps, dye West Harbour Bapedi 22g, 8 cities of the second generation make it to celebration, from the first generation only the colony got a colosseum and an aqueduct. For the others no resources were left.

380 coal Tugela Rome 46g, silk Meridum Ulundi (d) 60g
400 Refining, silver Issia Berlin 42g,
420 Explosives, copper Meridum Ulundi 22g, silk Cerea Rome (d) 106g, gold Amatikulu Rome 52g,
440 Germans: give Democracy
460 Metallurgy, beads Cerea Rome (d) 116g
480 Combustion, silk Ibabanago Rome (d) 206g, dye Isandhlwana Antium (d) 104g,

The end of Phase 2. About time. I am allready close to Automobile. Celebration stops. New settings: science 80% (710), lux 20%, science needed 741. City sizes: 12 (the one on continent 1), 8 (2), 7 (14), 6 (2), 5 (3), 3 (2), 2 (2), 1 (4).

500 Electricity, coal Ulundi Umfolozi (d) 272g, Sioux: give all techs,

520 Theory of Gravity, Germans: give Steam Engine, Sioux: give all techs, Sc./needed 774/779, very close, but I don´t have the deliveries for 2 techs a turn, spices Intombe LBH (d) 168g,

540 Steel, wool Tugela Antium (d) 106g,

560 Automobile, hut 50g, Spices West Harbour Umfolozi (d) 230 g, Romans: trade for Warrior Code, give techs maps, Sioux: give tech

580 Electronics, Zimbabwe, Umfolozi superhighways,

600 Feudalism, Amatikulu superhighways, wine Umfolozi Amatikulu (d) 582g, coal Cania LBH (d) 125g, silk Turoga Antium (d) 114g

The end game. Due to the limited ressources the last turns have been the most difficult to play in the game. With the first demanded delivery from the only developed Colony with support from superhighways the game finally takes up speed. The delivery bonus paid for the next superhighways and libraries to reach 2 techs a turn. The premillennium landing is in sight.

620 Chivalry, Leadership, Mpondo superhighways, coal Amatikulu Umf. (d) 608g, gold Umf. Mpondo 246g, wine Isipezi Umf. 150g

640 Conscription, Tactics, Issia, Ibabanago, Hlobane, Ulundi superhighways, coal Ibabanago Umf. (d) 633g, oil Hlobane Umf. 240g, gems Ngome LBH (d) 164g, sc/needed 1003/950

660 Atomic Theory, Machine Tools, Tugela, Isandlhwana superhighways, spices Issia Berlin (d) 314g, dye Issia Thebes (d) 150g, coal Zimbabwe Umf. (d) 658g, coal demand and wine deliveries from Umfolozi by far give the best trade results in this game. Sc/needed 1057/988

680 Mass Production, Miniaturization, Cunia, Swazi superhighways, copper Mpondo Umf. (d) 491g, silk Cunia Umf. 272g, oil Isandlhwana Umf. 310g, sc/needed 1089/1026

700 Nuclear Fission, Nuclear Power, Umfolozi University (sc. 104 at 80%), Intombe superhighways, down to 8g, wine Umf. Tugela (d) 670g, oil Zimbabwe Umf. (d) 709g, Umfolozi has just changed demand to oil J, I couldn´t have dreamed of a better colony, 1147/1064, still 2 techs a turn

720 Computers, Laser, oil Cerea Umf. (d) 598g, gold Intombe Umf. 278g, oil cunia Umf. (d) 734g, oil Ibabanago Umf. (d) 734g, wine Intombe Umf. 278g, oil Umtata Umf. (d) 408g, wine Ulundi Umf. 254g, cloth Hlobane Umf. 240g, gold Zimbabe Umf. 284g, 1152/1102,

740 Flight, Radio, Bapedi superhighways, oil Ulundi Umf. (d) 592g, oil Tugela Umf. (d) 626g, 1169/1140, trade for Communism

760 Advanced Flight, Rocketry, Meridum superhighways, spices Intombe Umf. (d) 555g, gold Meridum Umf. 235g, gems Amatikulu Umf. 182g, spices Sala Umf. (d) 290g,
science now at 90, lux 10, some cities don´t get enough food, but it is okay for a few turns

780 Space Flight, Plastics, I just realize I was negligent enough to trade for Communism instead of any other available tech 2 turns ago. Now I have to research a useless tech myself and may loose a turn. Wine Umf. Cerea (d) 387g, spices Cerea Umf. (d) 464g, copper Zimbabwe Umf. 195g, gold Swazi Umf. 175g, silver Cunia Umf. 182g

800 Espionage, Super Conductor, Apollo Program, silver Ish. Berlin (d) 137g, silver Bapedi Umf. 194g, oil Issia Umf. 128g. I had to sell some improvements and give in most of my units, but in the end I could even keep lux at 20 and a cash reserve of 23g.

820 Fusion Power, Launch 15 – 3 – 3 – 3

821 – 834 Nothing of interest

835 AC Landing


Zenon

The final sav is attached

Attachment: ap_a0834.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	02-10-2004 02:25									#35
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Zenon,

Wow, nice job!

I salivate at some of those delivery payments I was never able to achieve on the same continent, and wish I had discovered continent #1 early enough to take some advantage of placing colonies there.

Ten 2-tech turns really made all the difference and makes robust the best way to go without wonders. I was pretty much even with you up until you started to do that! I also lost ground with slower research after Advanced Flight, losing another 5 or 6 turns to your own pace.

Used to be that any kind of pre-1000 AD landings were just a pipe dream, but now they may become routine even without the help of wonders, at least on small maps.

My only question so far is: are you sure that was a 15-3-3-3 spaceship?

Congrats again on this super result!

	02-10-2004 03:37									#36
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Thanks a lot, Solo! Yes, the last 10 or 12 turns of the game felt sort of turbo charged after the first parts and were definitely fun to play. I am also convinced that the colony and the robust approach made the difference.

I have had a look at your sav and saw that you made excellent use of qualified trade routes and stations. I am still astonished that such a small civilization without wonders made it with such a landing date.

I find that this setting without wonders really made us leave old ways and think of new approaches. I am curious what games will come up next?

Oh, my spaceship was a 15 - 3 - 3 - 1 - 1 - 1. The notation is a bit misleading.

Zenon

	02-10-2004 03:46									#37
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A mere 1400 years before my personal best!!!

Congrats indeed!

Stu

	02-10-2004 10:14									#38
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Great result Zenon.

Next time you have to do it standing up in a hammock.

RJM at Sleeper's

	10-10-2004 12:41									#39
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Heh, check this out, the Sioux are peaceful and don't like to disturb native camps:

Attachment: hah.gif
This has been downloaded 95 time(s).

	11-10-2004 15:08									#40
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BTW I seem to remember that both MarkG and SG[1] were bound to submit, weren't they?

	11-10-2004 21:10									#41
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that's the august tournament you recall

	12-10-2004 05:22									#42
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quote: Originally posted by N35t0r Heh, check this out, the Sioux are peaceful and don't like to disturb native camps:

If the Sioux have turned green (as we can see on your picture), they must be protecting the environment, native camps included .

	12-10-2004 14:48									#43
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Having far too much RL at the moment - not bad, just busy


and playing SpellForce


my effort in this game was, as expected, very average - at best a nineteenth century landing so I have not played it for a while (EL is NOT my game) - and I'm up on the Succession front which I must soon give priority to.

Has anyone here tried SpellForce? - it is really quite addictive - but bloody hard unless you have the reactions of a teenager - which I decidedly do not.

Stu

	12-10-2004 14:49									#44
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Yeah - what's with the Green Sioux?????????

	12-10-2004 20:09									#45
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Could it be that exploring Zulu units have found a hut, still untipped, in the land of the Suefolk??

Monk

	12-10-2004 21:18									#46
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My guess is that those Sioux are members of Greenpeace

	13-10-2004 01:01									#47
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BM has it right, i found (poletrippin') a goody hut irrigated and roaded by the sioux, yet with the goody hut stil intact.

	13-10-2004 11:35									#48
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Just finished the run-out for a 15 yr ship landing in 1275a, Score 347, 45%. More tomorrow after some much needed rest.

Monk

	13-10-2004 20:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk after some much needed rest. Monk

IMO you really deserve it (just a few turns behind solo and 5 centuries before me ).

	13-10-2004 21:48									#50
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Nice game, Monk!

How many cities did you end up using? Did you go robust like Zenon, or go more towards the classic style?

	14-10-2004 01:11									#51
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quote: Originally posted by solo Nice game, Monk! How many cities did you end up using? Did you go robust like Zenon, or go more towards the classic style?

Thank you (and also La Fayette); this was fun having to rethink things. I believe that had you followed my plan, you would have improved my result by 200 yrs.

I think it was a good plan: 15-20 cities (had 20); with many carefully placed "station" cities, in a tight area; with ideal road/RR connections to max trade routes; with every city getting to size 7-8 with 3 routes; staying in Monarchy until Democracy was available (25bc change) to maximize favorable Settler environment and Courthouses to allow odd-size city growth thru WeLove; and max building of Science Improvements (max was 1620 beakers, with 18 techs in the last 15 turns up to Fusion).

I think I lost time by not building cities faster, by taking too many 70-99g trade routes, and possibly by building colossems too soon instead of using elvi or Lux. I am inclosing the 1200 save, which was the last before I started selling off things to build the S-ship. Looking at it, the thought comes that I might have sped the launch up at least one turn by rushing some of those Freights from scratch; but, my plan was to start rushing the next turn, and by leaving some of the Science Improvements past Launch, I was able to get to Stealth quickly. That was overkill, as it turned out, but I was ready if there had been a mass attack at the end. As it turned out, only the Romans jumped me and they were not a problem.

Comparing to your game, I got SuperConductor 2 turns later, and Fusion next turn, but did not have a stockpile of Freights for ship building. Knowing I would not challenge your finish, I think I might have slacked off at the end.

Monk

	14-10-2004 03:32									#52
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A fine game indeed, Monk ! It seems, that all of the games posted did pretty well if we consider that we had no wonders and had to try new approaches.

Your game is probably closer to mine compared to Solo´s very lean approach. I think that you lost time building colloseums and court houses. I had only one colloseum and one court house in my colony, built a few more cities and used the lux slider. On the other hand I never found the time to use qualified roads or stations.

Zenon

	14-10-2004 04:09									#53
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Zenon,

Thank you, sir!!

I assumed that colosseums would be necessary, or that the Luxury slider would need setting so high that research would be crippled. It never occurred to me that such a plan would work so well.

And I found that no amount of Luxuries would allow WeLove growth for the odd numbered cities without Courthouse in Democracy. Silly me and hat's off to you for your audacious approach. (I must spend some time studying your game!!).

By conscentrating on using your "additional" Settlers for more cities (and perhaps by building in to existing cities??) instead of making the additional road connections as I did, you proceeded much faster through the game. I especially liked your use of the territory NW of the Romans. I think I got an Advanced Tribe there but burned it down and walked the resulting NON back to the home area. I thought it would be too vulnerable as an outlying group and too hard to make use of their camels. Wrong!! Another opportunity missed!!

Monk

	14-10-2004 10:49									#54
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Nice result, Monk.

Any more results still to come?

RJM at Sleeper's

	14-10-2004 16:39									#55
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Great result Monk

My hat off to all you guys

Stu

	14-10-2004 19:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I assumed that colosseums would be necessary, or that the Luxury slider would need setting so high that research would be crippled. It never occurred to me that such a plan would work so well.

Monk,

I agreed in my initial assessment and was also proven wrong. Luxuries appear to be a much better way to work the unhappiness problem. They also avoid the excessive cost and upkeep associated with colosseums. Far more cities and a better economy more than make up for the lower science setting.

Let's see, 3 times more cities means 3 times more beakers plus many more trading opportunities! Having science at only 60% does not seem like much of a handicap now.

Having seen your save, I can say that I am now distinguished as the only player to have missed a great colony opportunity on island #1! You also did a great job with RR bonuses, getting more of them and some better ones than I could manage with my own 8 cities. Had your midgame gone a little better and if your health were better, I think you might have managed a pre-1000 AD landing with the cities you had. Nice work!

	15-10-2004 01:24									#57
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I have submitted my humble effort, the slowest lander so far, but as it's the first time I've had a go in one of these tournaments, I guess it's OK, and the total number of Civ2 games I've played (including beginners level) is under 10.

I learned a lot, would do much better if I had another go at something like this, it was fun, and what more can I say?

	15-10-2004 04:51									#58
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Congratulations okosling and welcome aboard. The really neat thing about these "contests" is that everyone who plays wins because of the fun and the knowledge we gain. Hope you will join us again.

Monk

	15-10-2004 05:06									#59
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solo,

Thanks, but really, my discovery of the "Colony" Island was an accident, a serendipity borne of the need for a boat to uncover the offshore special that the pattern suggested would be there.

I am particularly pleased by the site for Cairo Road. It not only gave a station for all of Egypt, but also quickened the travel time to German cities, especially after Reisling was founded. I love canals!!

Monk

	15-10-2004 19:19									#60
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So guys who's the winner ?