05-10-2004 18:35									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Celts? Uh-oh, sounds like you got a corrupted version.

And do you mean you're not #1 in culture? Cause I'm pretty sure you are, at least out of civs you've met.

	10-10-2004 00:21									#32
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As you might recall from my last DAR, as of 1000BC I had researched Philosophy (taking Code of Laws for free) then doubled back for Mathematics. I was also still fighting a REX war, trying to keep the greedy Chinese and Persians away from "my" land.

950BC: Statue of Zeus

I discover Mathematics in 975BC, and decide to hold on to it for a bit because both China and Persia have not caught up to my Philosophy windfall yet. At the end of turn, Xerxes demands Math.! I of course give in, not at all prepared to fight Immortals just yet, and confident that Persia will not beat me to the Statue of Zeus, which I complete in Bangalore the next turn.

Production in Bangalore was 14 Shields per turn at the time, which is 7 Bonus Grasslands. I was thus able to build a Barracks there in 3 turns after the Statue before proceeding to another Wonder. I had "enough" Workers at this point that I could have joined some to create an even bigger Wonder city, but lack of happiness boosters forced me to stay relatively small. The Luxury slider was not a good option because all my other cities were doing just fine without it (2 Luxuries, Temples, and MPs).

This state of affairs lead to:

570BC: Mausoleum of Mausollos

Again, in Bangalore. While not the greatest Wonder around, it's certainly not useless. It's an expensive Cathedral without upkeep that is available many many turns earlier. I thus was able to grow Bangalore to size 10 (11 with Incense available later) so that it could build subsequent Wonders even more quickly.

Another reason for this decision was that I felt I was going to lose the race to all the other Ancient era Wonders anyway. The Temple of Artemis had just been completed by the Arabs, and China already had Construction. What I could have done was use the 200 Shields as a prebuild for the Great Library, but I had already decided to research The Republic myself (which, OMG, takes forever!) and I could not depend on the stock AI to research Literature in time.

Which brings me to:

975BC - 350BC: The Long Journey to The Republic

After Mathematics, I decided to research The Republic the hard way. I'm not really sure if this was the right play from an efficiency perspective (in comparison to 50-turn research), but the plan did have a lot going for it nonetheless.

Literature did not seem like such a great option, for a few reasons. First, if I was the first to get it, the Chinese and Persians would get it faster, which meant I would have to contend with more Culture and faster research from both of them (I was certainly not in a position to conquer either at the time). Second, my own cities were too busy building troops and Workers to take time out for an 80-Shield project. Even when you're going for a cultural win, some things are more important than Culture. Third, while the Great Library would certainly be an asset, I was not really confident I would build it before one of the other five civs on the other continent, which were more likely to reserach Literature due to a higher number of trading partners.

Without the Great Library, I would have to do research, or at least play the tech trading game. The Republic is one of the best techs for this. The AIs rarely go for it until well into the Medieval era, yet it's worth a lot to them. It would also be worth a lot to me too: a quick government change was essential to creating the economy necessary to "make my play" at around Chivalry. I also needed to have the option of getting rid of my MPs at some point. Most of them were Warriors and Chariots I was planning on upgrading, and the Republic would allow me to use the Lux slider instead of them to keep my cities content, freeing them to move to the front lines where they belong.

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Last edited by Dominae on 10-10-2004 at 00:33

	10-10-2004 00:24									#33
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In the meantime, China was looking pretty scary: in 410BC, Mao completed the Great Wall (that's in addition to the Pyramids), and discovered Literature in 390BC. It's not like I was planning to attack China anytime soon, but it's always demoralizing when your neighbor gets the Great Wall.

350BC: The Republic

I finally accumulate enough Beakers for this beast, and start a revolution immediately (1 turn Anarchy, oh yeah). Fearing that China or Persia will demand it from me (a very real possibility, as I'm weak but have "the goods"), I ring them up and organize these trades:

China: Republic for Construction, Literature and 11gpt
Persia: Construction for Horseback Riding and 209 Gold

Yes, I did not follow my own advice and kept the Republic away from Persia because they did not have enough to give for it. In 330BC my new government is formed, and the Worker class "hooks us up" with some fine Incense to celebrate.

I'm thinking things are going pretty well at this point, which is why:

110BC: Persia Declares WAR!

I guess Xerxes was jealous that Mao made it into the Medieval era in 170BC, and decided to take it out on me. As usual, I'm unprepared for the attack (if I were prepared, I would have initiated the conflict!), but the geography of the Indian-Persian borden is such that I can defend adequately against the steady flow of Immortals from the North.

Here's the composition of my troops the turn I get attacked:

Warriors: 21
Spearmen: 4
Catapult: 2
Horsemen: 8
Ancient Cavalry: 8

I also have a throng of Workers. I pull all my troops from the Chinese border, because for some reason Mao is supremely happy with me. I cannot get China to ally with me because I have nothing to offer, but my sources tell me that Persia is in the same boat so it looks like it's going to be Gandhi vs. Xerxes. Hey, that sounds cool:

Gandhi vs. Xerxes!!

On to the show. As expected, Xerxes thinks it's a great idea to just run his Immortals into my walled cities and defenders on Mountains. I just take the hits, because I do not have enough Gold yet to upgrade enough Warriors to mount an offensive, and my Horsemen are too precious (one day they will be elephants!). Counter-attacks would be suicide for my units because the battleground is mostly Jungle. With few losses on my side, I sit back and enjoy the positive WW, confident that Xerxes will tire himself out eventually.

Not that the war is unimportant, but I'm actually more interested in this:

110BC: Great Library

And this:

90BC: Contact Spanish

Yes, this was certainly an exciting period in my game: Persia declares war, I complete the Great Library, and one of my suicide Galleys makes it across the great divide.

I was quite surprised that I was able to secure the Great Library, but contact with Spain (and subsequently the other civs) reveals that the AI really prefers entering the Medieval era to researching Literature. Fortunately for you, the reader, Spain knows both Currency and Polytheism, and so in 70BC I enter the Medieval era, which completes this DAR.

Last edited by Dominae on 10-10-2004 at 01:26

	10-10-2004 01:24									#34
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Forgot the screenshot:

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	12-10-2004 19:47									#35
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm gonna post my notes here and comment tonight... They might spark some discussion...

Picking up from DAR II...

Jaipur founded in attempt to steal dyes from the Persians by Culture.
1025BC: Hyderabad founded. Bengal founded

950BC: Dyes connected near Lahore
825BC: Germany completes Oracle in Leipzig
775BC: Poprushed temples in Hyderabad and Bengal. Philo next turn (fingers crossed)
750BC: Philo discovered, I'm the first! Taking Literature as my free tech. Going for Maths and SoZ at full speed.
Chittagong founded up north.
730BC: Persian invasion near Jaipur. 2 warriors vs 2 archers, 1 spearman and 4 warriors (I think I will win)
710BC: Wierd... I positioned troops ready for a counter strike and Xeres asks me to move. I do. He moves past Jaipur and when I ask him to leave, he declares war...
Philo for HBR, Pottery and 14 gold to China. Gotta keep good relations...
I attack the invading Persians with my archers in Jaipur. 2 Pers. casualties, only minor wounded onmy side...
Iroquois complete the Pyramids in Salamanca
Wonder cascade: Mausoleum of Mausollos completed in Beijing.
Wonder cascade: GLib started by the Persians.
690BC: I kill the other warrior in my territory. I have to warriors heading for the Persian territory to pillage.
610BC: Pillaging team pillages a road and irrigation and died like true heroes.
Persia still refuses to talk, attack on Sidon. Lost 1 archer and 2 warriors. They lost 1 spearman and redlined the other. My attack with warriors to lose this last Hp fails. The guy is now elite... Damn!
Maths done, on to Iron Working.
590BC: Dammit, they had barracks in Sidon, the spearman is now fully healed. 1st reg archer takes it to 2hp. Vet archer succedes! Sidon is auto-razed.
570BC: Peace with Persia for Sardis, Tyre, Bactra and Gordium (!) although they don't want to give IW.
Looks like they are all freshly pop-rushed cities, but it's nice nonetheless.
510BC: Philo to Persia for 2 workers and IW (although I was only 1 turn from it) Mostly for the workers. Currency in 13 turns. mmmm Marketplaces...
410BC: Colossus in Calcutta. Must watch for GA...
350BC: GLib completed in Persepolis.
Slowly grinding for warfare against the persians...
290BC: Punjab founded on the iron south of Persia. Mysticism in 4 turns
230BC: Mysticism done, Construction in 11 turns. Iron on the mountain connected...
190BC: Built Dacca on the ruins of Sidon. Yay, I can build my FP! (at last)
50BC: Temple of Artemis in Berlin
30BC: Wonder Cascade: Hanging Gardens in Madrid. SoZ in 14 turn (fingers crossed). Settler teams from Persia are crossing my territory to get to the insence... I will settle there first!
Construction. MM in 6 turns
50AD: CoL for Mys and 50 gold to China
70AD: Indus founded near the volcano
110AD: MM done. Polytheism done in 6.
130AD: Ganges founded. SoZ in 3, fingers still crossed!
190AD: Advance to Middle Ages!
Statue of Zeus in Bombay!! We enter a GA (damn, I should have thought.)
Republic in 4.
210AD: Wonder Cascade: Lighthouse in Damascus
Having fun with the settlers team, blocking the chokepoint.
250AD: New Delhi founded
270AD: Republic discovered. Switch. First Ancient Cavalry
280AD: Monotheism in 8.
310AD: New Bombay near the two incenses.
330AD: FP in Jaipur.
360AD: Attack on Persia. Hamadaan taken. No casualties and captured 2 settlers and a worker.
Lost against an immortal while tryin gto pillage the iron... GA in Persia (Damn)
400AD: Arbela taken, after a long battle. 2 settlers captured. Peace for a worker and 39 gold. I don't like their immortals around me...
420AD: End of GA.
450AD: A suicide galley spots borders on the onther land mass, but can't make contact.It's the Ottomans.
460AD: Dammit! I sunk!
500AD: Great Wall in Salamanca. Damn, I was 1 turn from it.
510AD: Knights Templar in Delhi.
540AD: Thelogy done, Education in 10.
580AD: Two horsemen and a swordmen show on the chinese border. Smells like sneak attack...
620AD: Tsingtao taken with War Elephants and AC. 1 settler captured
680AD: Tinstein Captured.
710AD: Music Theory + SGL!!!!! I use him to rush Sun Tzu in Delhi.
Took Canton
790AD: Captured Beijing! Peace for Chinan, Hangchow and Chengdu.
I met the Arabs during the china war, forgot to note it. I'm 3+ techs in front of them (and probably the whole other continent... I'm pretty surprised.

Going for DAR IV...

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	13-10-2004 09:57									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Konquest....interesting game. What level are you playing? Probably may have been better if you'd stopped at 190AD when you entered the middle ages and when on tho the next DAR, but no matter

Dom - excellent game as usual! Looking forward to reading about your culture push!

	13-10-2004 16:44									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I just read the other posts, and i have to say my game is quite different then yours. Monarch with AU Mod

975 BC Point of view settled between chinese and persian border

900 BC
There is a settler in the first popped, i used a spearman to discover it. Nice

875 BC
Krondor founded

825 BC
Great wonder statue of zeus in Bitter lake! Chinese cascaded to GL :/
Time for wartime preparations.

730 BC
Iron connected: training of swordmen can start

690 BC
First curraugh! Mission: chart china coasts and find the iron and horse resources

670 BC
Rillanon founded

530 BC
Strong army vs persia, Average vs China

470 BC
Got Philo + Construction for free!
I'm ready for the war, but how will we prevent Persia from backstabbing?
Anyways i'm two turns of the only chinese iron source with my warrior, can we pillage the road?
Weed City founded near incense

450 BC start of indo-china war
The iron source is not pillaged, china eliminated our warrior after refusing to leave, well, the hard way then.
The piramids are build in bejing: thank u china Our swordmen and AC marching up towards china border cities
Alliance with persians.

350 BC
Persia Builded GL. Good, that wonder will not generate more culture after destroying persians

270 BC
Chinese cut off from iron

250 BC
Hills of Eternal weed founded, Troops marching up to Bejing

210 BC
Bejing and Pyramids captured, Production of Swordmen switched to libarys
(army of 16 sm and 6 AC)

130 BC
Blood lake founded on chinese bodys

50 BC
twenty turns alliance with persia are over, 3 chinese cities left, and the whole persian army near my citys
so i give them gpt for a extension

10 BC
It seems i'm the most powerfull of the world according to machiavelli
I didn't think i was doing that wel.
Well only culture matters so we will see.

30 AD end of indo-china war
China Eliminated. Now comes a delicate decision: Republic is due in 1 turns. Persia has currency. That should be tradable. We have average army according to them, some of their units in my territority.
My attack units are in former china so way to far to feel safe. Persia is also sending settlers toward former china.
Should i push or should i build infrastructure and wait for knights to challenge the immortals.

Visible persia army: 6 Immortals, 7 warriors, 4 archers

	13-10-2004 16:49									#38
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

50 AD
Republic + anarchy. No trades yet.
Moving army from china to persian border. Changed some builds to settler and spearmen
Persia is annoyed but is removing their army from my territority.
So far its going well

90 AD
Res publica installed! Decided to reasearch currency myself (7 turns), Persia has no construction and CoL.
Used some gold to rush temples in former china. Blocked Persian Settlers with choke point. Since persia has no mapmaking, there wont be galleys for a while.

150 AD
Eastern Travel Channel founded. Persia has construction.

280 AD
War preparations are ready. I try to get persia to declare war, but they fold.
Dacca founded in the south

300 AD
We declared war on persia, the stack of 6 immortals, 7 warriors and 4 archers not completely destroyed :/ Persia has golden age now. Have we started to soon?

310 AD
Ganges founded on ruins of chinese city, some persian archers killed, marching up to Sidon

320 AD
In Sidon a single redlined Spearman defends succesfully from 2 Swordmen :/

340 AD
Sidon Captured, Two Immortals killed. I think with the first stack we killed the bulk of their army

370 AD
Founded Pune

380 AD
Middle Ages: I decide to continue in Dar3 until entire continent is mine
Focus on Education.

390 AD
Founded Delhi

400 AD
Arbela Captured after extreme heavy losses :/

430 AD
War Weariness: Lux at 30%
Great leader! -> Army -> Win: Heroic epic

450 AD
Bombay founded

470 AD End of first Indo-Persian War
Persepolis captured after heavy losses. We need a pauze in the war, so we ask for peace.
We get 3 citys, there are 4 persian citys left.

490 AD
Monotheism: Cathedrals are coming

500 AD Start of second indo-persian war.
Captured Samaria
War weariness is huge now, even at the start 40% lux needed.
Well since there are no other contacts reputation is not an issue

530 AD
Captured Parsagadae, two to go.

550 AD
Captured Antioch, One left

570 AD End of second Indo-Persian war
Eliminated the persians.

Conclusion: after almost 1000 Years of war the entire continent is ours. There is rumour of an island to the east of former persia. We are also setting up a second core at Bejing. We need contacts to know if we are making good culture.
Wonder division:

India: Zeus, Mausoleum, Piramids(capt), GL(capt), GW(capt)
Spanish: colossus
Arabs: Hanging Gardens
Iroquis: TGL, Artemis
Germans: Oracle

Current culture: 5433/100000

Military: 20 allowed, 45 units in the field
11 workers,
18 spearmen,
8 swordmen,
1 Galley,
1 Army
6 Ancient Cavs
20+ slaves
36 cities

demographics says: 1rst in pop, area, gnp, mfg and prod, 2end in income

Most of u have already the contacts with the other continent, I dont. So i will need DAR 4

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	13-10-2004 16:50									#39
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And the south of india

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	14-10-2004 04:11									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Konquest....interesting game. What level are you playing? Probably may have been better if you'd stopped at 190AD when you entered the middle ages and when on tho the next DAR, but no matter

The way I defined the DAR structure, this DAR is supposed to cover until players have both entered the middle ages and explored essentially their entire home continent. Looking back, that probably wasn't a particularly good way to define it because some of us didn't really explore the whole continent (even to the extent of circumnavigating it with a ship) until we'd conquered essentially the whole thing. But for better or for worse, that's how it's officially defined.

	14-10-2004 05:00									#41
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Yes I realise that Nathan, which is why I said it probably would have been better, but no matter.

As you've pointed out, the way it was defined led to the situation where to compare some players' games you needed to read different DAR's, with your game and my game being good examples of early finishes to DAR4 that happened either before or around the same time as the end of DAR3.

	14-10-2004 07:05									#42
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Konquest....interesting game. What level are you playing? Probably may have been better if you'd stopped at 190AD when you entered the middle ages and when on tho the next DAR, but no matter

I'm playing on Monarch, AU rules. I used to be a not-so-good emperor player, but since I hadn't played in a while, I decided to step down to Monarch... It's going pretty well right now!

It would have been a good idea to divide my DAR between my peaceful and warmongering eras...

I probably won't get to play some more before the weekend, as I have exams coming up (I should not have started that game at all... )

--Kon--

	26-10-2004 06:05									#43
	Lucky exploration and to war to war to war! Put an end to popups!

With my war elephants amassing, I ready to destroy the pathetic civilzation to the south. My cities are now all building temple-library-cathedral-collesium-war units. (I have the Pyramds and Sun Tzu so all cities have barracks and graneries).
I also have SoZ and KoT, so those units will help my elephants. I am going to form a military aliance with northern civ so that I do not have to worry about them during my 1st war.

I initially had built the Great Library in hopes of not having to research anymore technology. Unfortunately, the AI's next to me were much too slow and I can't wait for them (need Education for Universities). With the help of the Great Lighthouse, I've been suiciding galleys in hopes that the other continent is more full of technology. Unfortuantly, they are just as pathetic as my counterparts. Maybe I'm playing too easy a level or else I've spent too much time on technology.

In any case, my plans are to conquer my continent with elephants and then culture like crazy.

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	26-10-2004 09:48									#44
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Wow! That is tight city placement, for obviously a military aim... but damn, China did the same! I don;t know if I've ever seen AI CP at 2-tile!? And at 7-pop, no less, with a culture face-off!

Heckuva front!

	26-10-2004 15:17									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't think AI knows that. Judging by name of the city, it's founded by India (player).

	26-10-2004 17:30									#46
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Yes, sorry... Risa is quite right that New Bangalore was originally Indian.

It occurs to me that freud's strategy was very... Indian.

	26-10-2004 17:52									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus It occurs to me that freud's strategy was very... Indian.

Good one Theseus. In fact, in hindsight given the strategy that many of us employed in this game, India probably was the most appropriate civ choice!

By the way....where are your DAR's? I seem to remember you promising to post them weeks ago!

	26-10-2004 18:01									#48
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I'm working on them... got most of the way through DAR 3 last night, in fact. Sorry for the delay., but the latter ones are going to be a bit daunting to complete.

	26-10-2004 19:20									#49
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Great.....that means War Elephant carnage.....looking forward to it