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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:13
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One of the nice things about hexagons is that you don't really have to draw coastlines. The map would look fine without them; we only need the land and water tiles.
I'd prefer regular hexagons.
I think F_Smith said that the map code will be able to handle any tiling option. I would like to see hexagons as an option.
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alms66
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Louisiana
Oct 1999
time: 23:13
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I downloaded the HiRes graphics for Civ II (you can view it here: http://apolyton.net/civ2/ NOTE:click database, Top Rated, HiRes), and this idea hit me:
Why not use these temporarily for Clash?
We would, of course, get the owner's permission, then resize them to whatever size we need. This would give us some graphics to work with until we have artists on board to do all the different graphics for the final game. In all I don't think it would be too much work to get the 2 different sizes for all tiles we need, since I don't think we'll need all those unit graphics. If you like the idea, I'll need a list of what units, terrain, and city icons we'll need (with different cultures, etc.).
What do you think of this idea?
[This message has been edited by Toubabo_Koomi (edited October 20, 2000).]
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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:13
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Two points:
Why can't we change the tile size we are using? It would be trivial, and it would allow us to use any existing Civ2 graphic that the owner gives us permission to use. Personally, I like the civ2 tile size better than the larger ones we are currently using.
If we declared our project to be freeware and used the GPL, we wouldn't have that problem with the GIF graphics. We might also have an easier time getting permission to use existing graphics.
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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:13
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Very Nice!
But will they look right in the larger tile size?
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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:13
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I seem to recall that we already got permission to use the complete set of "Hi-Res" alternate graphics that someone made for Civ 2. Using that would give us more freedom to play with tech advances and such in the demo. Also, Fiera can then devote more time to making special Clash units while we use the stock units for the more basic armies.
PS: Once the basic demo is built, I would also like to experiment with modpack design as a test of flexibility. With the standard tile size, I could draw from the library of fantastic, magical, and sci-fi units to do this. Otherwise, I'd have to make my own art for my experiments, which would get very ugly.
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited March 22, 2001).]
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-22-2001 07:12 AM
Richard made a good suggestion, about using the base Civ2 iso graphics resolution (64x32) for Clash. And Fiera thinks its a good idea too.
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I'm sorry, but I think I have to make you know one of the major flaws of the 64x32 tile, even though I feel it would be better than a 120x60 tile.
In Civ2, you usually had a problem creating units: the scale between infantry units and cavalry units. A different scale for ships, planes and other big units is a must, since you couldn't possibly have a Carrier with a consistent size when compared to a Phalanx. But the problem between infantry and cavalry units can be avoided with a slightly bigger size tile.
And what's more important: I think that the Power Circle would be much difficult to implement in such a small tile.
So let's say we use the 80x40 tile you have in the Graphics Demo at the Clash website. Being bigger than the standard Civ tile, it allows for bigger and/or more detailed unit (ie, a good chariot unit), and there should be room enough for Power Circles . Besides, we have a lot of things that we can use, at least for the demos. City icons and units originally made for Civ2 wouldn't look too small in such a tile. I've already made some tests with my own isometric city icons.
Furthermore, since Clash isn't going to be a Civ-clone in its dynamics, but a very different game, I think you should give him unique and original aesthetics too. I generally like the 80x40 tile since it makes everything look clearer (there is much more "space" between objects) when compared to the Civ2 default map.
quote:
Mixing and matching units of different styles could certainly become an issue. Fiera, what do you think about that? It still seems on balance worth it.
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As a player that puts a lot of attention in the artistics of the game, I think I'll warn you about the dangers of having too different style units on the map. Even such a carefully planned game like Civ2 annoyed me somewhat for that reason. There even were some foot units with different style and size (ie, the Explorer and the Pikemen). I'd try to go for as much uniformity as possible in the long run.
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
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Wow, Fiera, good stuff! I'm tired, and need a little time to collect my thoughts, but here's the initial ones...
80 wide does look good. Although I think the unit would need to be scaled down a little because:
1. Clash can have two opposing sides in the same square, so need to be able to squeeze in two.
2. Allow for larger chariots, etc., than the man-sized figures, like you pointed out.
3. Make it so the Power Circles, if we use them, can have a range of about 3 in diameter without looking like a ring around a guy's legs  at the smaller end while not expanding to the square edge at the larger end.
These problems are of course even worse for example 4...
One thing that would be helpful in the next revision is to put a civ-size unit on each sample also.
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:13
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Fiera:
The three closely-nested circles look really cool, but unfortunately that doesn't cover what they need to do functionally. First, if we use something like the circles, I think they need to be player color, so you can't use that to distinguish them (I don't think that was your intention anyway, but just to be sure  ). Second, when there are alot of My-civ-color circles on the map, it won't be easy visually to tell the red one in your demos from the blue one. Third, it needs more than three levels, it really needs something like a Factor of 3 in diamater like I said earlier. That's because you need to have recognizable at least five or six gradiations between Very powerful TFs for the age, or relatively insignificant garisons. As currently defined a range of 3 in diameter lets us show a range of 9 in power, which is I think adequate.
On opposing figures in the same square. Well, IMO it would be cool to show that on the map. Gives the right visceral feel that my guys are Fighting someone! But Power Circles of different color in a single square would show there is a fight going on in a crude way (that's what's done in d4). I think offsetting the figures to the sides and/or top/bottom should work. Perhaps that's the next important thing to try. Take two chariots and see what size they can be and still both fit...
LGJ:
Well, IMO we should only start on different cultures for the units/buildings in a serious way when a reasonably complete graphics spec is determined. Because adding only one extra culture doubles the work, and if the spec isn't finalized that would be wasted work... But that's just my opinion. We could probably get someones permission to use an alternate-culture civ2 set soon if it seems like we need to test something with two styles of units.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:13
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Two units per square means two civs (or something like that) but why ONLY TWO? Should anything in the models prevent three or more task forces of different civs to converge at the same point? (Isn't that simultaneous moves?)
Well, OK, that should rarely happen and it would be hell to show it on the poor tile.
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16-10-2000 01:08
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