16-09-2000 20:44									#61
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It seems that no one has been working on this model for over eight months. There is already a lot of overlap between this and the ecology model, so do you all think I should start working on this model? I think I could make things run more smoothly if I integrated this with the ecology model.

But there seems to be code already in existence for this model, and Mark mentioned earlier that there were things that had been decided on yet were not listed in this forum. Could you send me all of the information about this model that already has been decided on or coded?

	17-09-2000 04:36									#62
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Richard:

I think I have already mentioned the only thing that is really locked in by the map AI, which is that the map should be cylindrical. MCA, who did the coding for the previous model, disappeared a long time ago, and the links to his site with the code are no longer functional. It is possible that Paul Crocker or Henrique Duarte have copies of that.

Actually, given that you are interested in learning Java, I think going ahead learning how to program, and getting the technology model going is vastly more important to the project than anything you could possibly do in this area. IMO this model could lay dormant until well after demo 5 is out and it would not hurt the project one bit. Whereas getting the tech model basically up is one of our vital issues.

	17-09-2000 04:57									#63
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Okay, thanks for telling me that. I'll put all of my work on the ecology model on hold and start concentrating on technology. I can get back to this and the ecology model later.

BYW, Mark:

quote: For these reasons, most of the stuff that you described is already planned (and some of it implemented in code) but there is no mention of it here. Some of that there is no distinct mention of anywhere except in the code.

	17-09-2000 05:28									#64
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I will write Henrique. I think he has it.

	30-09-2000 09:27									#65
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Hey Mark heard anything?

	30-09-2000 09:42									#66
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Yeah I got the code from Henrique and forwarded it to Richard about a week ago.

	29-09-2000 22:37									#67
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I got the code; it will eventually be integrated into the Ecology model. I was planning on doing this myself sometime in the future, but it looks as if F_Smith will end up coding all of this before I learn how to code.

	22-02-2001 19:40									#68
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Hi!

I recently joined the Clash Project and volunteered to code the Map Generator. I chose it, because it is not so tightly integrated into the project and I am not so experienced in Java, yet.

Since I agreed with Mark to start the whole Map Generator anew, I think I will begin with coding a heightmap generator, using the model depicted at the beginning of this thread, or something similiar. After having calculated the height of each map tile one could set the "water height", resulting in every tile with lesser height beeing covered with water. I might do it so, that you preset the percentage of the surface of the world, which should be covered with water, and the model derives therefrom the necessary water height.
Determining the ecological properties of the map tiles would follow thereafter.

I do not know yet if I can do it that way, but what do you think about it?

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	23-02-2001 05:40									#69
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Great to have you getting into this, and reviving this long-dormant topic! Your approach sounds good to me.

So when can we expect a demo no pressure...

	23-02-2001 18:46									#70
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Your idea sounds good, but I want to point out the fact that some lands are under sea level. That's probably complicated to start with, though, but I think it could be done if you use seeds for ocean/lakes (for instance only fill with water lands below level X, then flood up to level X + 3).

	23-02-2001 21:38									#71
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I have looked at the old code map generation code and the results it produces. Well, I don't like it very much. The continents are looking too geometric, not quite natural. The mountains are not nicely spread out and the many tiny islands produced aren't that appealing either.
Maybe we should use some more heuristic algorithm, one not based on real geological evolution, but one just optimised for good looking results? I haven't made up my mind yet, but I think the model as it is now may not quite be what we need.
Please comment what you think of that. It is a completely different approach and may not be what you like.

LDiCesare:
Yes, good point, hadn't thought about that. But maybe it wouldn't hurt too much leaving it for a later version.

	24-02-2001 04:20									#72
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Hi Rüdiger:

Well, the person doing the work gets the most say in how things get developed. So why don't we think about this for a bit, and then we can decide what the best direction to go in is. I'm going to try and get into contact with Paul Crocker, and see if I can interest him in contributing to this discussion.

On the continents looking too geometric, I raised that issue before with MCA, but he assured me that that was due to a bug (or perhaps lack of refinement in the code). I think another problem may be with initialization. By starting everything as a big continent, fracturing it, and only letting it evolve a bit from there, you will tend to get compact things like are shown in MCA's examples. It may be much better done with a cylindrical map with a few large starting continents.

So I advise giving this a few days to talk over before we make any decisions. But you could certainly investigate other possibilities during that time. You could also try some simple modifications to MCA's code along the lines of what I suggested, or let it evolve longer and see if it doesn't look better.

-Mark

	26-02-2001 23:11									#73
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My concern is that whatever we use for generating the maps should work resoanbly well whether the player wants a closed map, cylindral map (like civ), or a globe (my proposal).

	28-02-2001 01:31									#74
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Rüdiger:

I heard from Paul on the subject I posted above. He's really busy so he thought it might take a bit for him to get back to the forum. But he said that mca's code output has many limitations that are simply the result of not enough iterations and other factors. So pending Paul's re-emergence I'll again suggest that playing with the old demo code with more iterations or different initial landmass distributions seems valuable to me. BTW, It looks from the results that the map may not be cylindrical either. That would be another thing to look into changing, since plates might tend to spread out more given the extra freedom.

What do you think?

Hi LGJ:

While I agree it would be valuable to have a map generation routine that can make a sphere, I don't think we can call it essential. Till we've got all the models doing Something reasonable, I don't think we can make big detours in our algorithms etc. based on options it might be nice to have. Hopefully you'll get your wish, but I don't think we should make the map generation stuff much more difficult (and so take potentially a lot longer) just to allow for spherical maps.

	28-02-2001 04:20									#75
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Ok, ok, I'll do what you say Mark!

I did not have much time the last days, so I haven't looked into the whole thing again. I'll rewrite the old code I have and try to make it better.
If cylindrical map means going off the map to the left is entering it on the right, then the code already handles cylindrical maps.
[This message has been edited by Rüdiger (edited February 28, 2001).]

	28-02-2001 17:32									#76
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Hi Rüdiger:

Sorry, I didn't mean to badger you... much Yep, cylindrical means what you said. Just another idea I had is that plates could be given a 'drift term' in their random motion. So even though the motion is random, on average it goes in a certain direction for each plate. If there isn't something like this, if you start out with a big block you'll basically end up with a big block with some small channels between the pieces. Anyways, good luck on messing around with it!

	28-02-2001 23:38									#77
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Mark:

I understand working on the cylendrical first, mainly cuz its easier since its been done before. I'm just saying that if clash is going for realisn where it doesn't interfer with player fun, i don't see how my idea interfers with it as it would be totally optional.

Again, i am not saying that it should be worked on until we have most of the stuff done for the cyledrial map.

	03-03-2001 04:44									#78
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I heard from a friend of mine, who studies geology, that the continental plates are moved by "hot spots". Hot spots are locations, where hot magma flows up from the planets core to the surface, pushing the continental plates away. I think I will implement something like that to determine the movement of the continental plates, it seems much better than just a random movement.

Since I will rewrite the whole Map Generator I will change a few things, that aren't ideal in the old code. But I'll stay with the concept from the beginning of this thread.

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	05-03-2001 23:14									#79
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Rüdiger:

There are a few flaws in your last statement, but nothing to worry about for game dynamic purposes. Its just that when attempting to model plates like that, you must also be aware of the fact that the magma also can suddenly (in geologic terms) switch directions, even 180 degrees and also do so mid-plate so you'd have 2 smaller plates.

You should also be aware of strange things that happen like on the india//austrailian plate where india can only move ~1" per year while austrailia can move sometimes up to ~4" a year, so that may cause a rip and create a new plate.

	07-03-2001 10:42									#80
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LGJ:

Ok, the way I described it was a bit oversimplyfied. I dind't want to go to the extend as you described it, I just liked the general idea. I definetley don't like randomly moving plates.

All:

I actually started coding yesterday and I'm slowly getting a grip on Java. Swing is still a little unusual to me, but I'm getting along. I hope I have something to show the people, tonight. Though it will only model the height of the tiles, and it uses only simple models. But from there it shouldn't be to hard to add some water to get land and sea. And then an ecology simulation can start, determining the type of the tiles.

Do you like the quotes I add to my posts, or do you think I should stop adding them? Just wondering...

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	07-03-2001 03:38									#81
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Sounds great Rüdiger. And I like the quotes too .

	07-03-2001 03:39									#82
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I don't think its bad to start them off random directions, but generally a plate should go in the same direction once started, but still allow for turnaround and splits.

	07-03-2001 08:06									#83
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Unfortunately I wasn't able to get the MapGen to producing nice results, today (night). No sweat. Tomorrow is another day... I think I will put the sources onto a web page, so you can have a look at them and get an impression of the program. Somehow the ideas I had weren't working out as I thought. Seems like I have to do some further tests.

LGJ:
Yep, maybe I should introduce some of these ideas into the code for my next test.

Hmmm, it's four o'clock in the morning, I think I need some sleep.

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	08-03-2001 00:26									#84
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Ok, I have put up a web page where you can see a picture of the Map Generator and can also download the source code.
The Map Generator is not yet finished, so don't start yelling what a piece of crap it is, though I am always happy to hear your ideas, suggestions and thoughts about it.

The address is:
http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~sirukell/

I hope it works.

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	08-03-2001 00:36									#85
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I haven't looked at the code yet, just the picture (that's easier for me ). Are all your plates at the same height? It seems all continental plate centers are underwater. I understand they should most often be in flatland or underwater. Do you have a plate offset height or is it just bad luck on this particular picture?
P.S. I don't know anything in geology, so please bear with me if I am being stupid again.
P.P.S. I love your quotes.

	08-03-2001 04:09									#86
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LDiCesare:

The height is saved per map tile, each map tile corresponds to one continental plate. The plate centers are more like plate handles at the moment. It can even happen, that the "center" is completely outside of the plate itself.
I don't know much about geology myself, but I know that my map generator is extremly simplyfied at the moment. And unfortunately the results aren't very good yet.


All:

I'm soon going to update the source code on the page. I made some small improvements, but I fear I have to start again with a better concept.

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	08-03-2001 04:29									#87
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I'd like to make 2 suggestions, both of which should be fairly simple.

1> Add some kind of line for plate edges.
2> For those of us (like me) who can't understand much of coding beyond the math equations, can you save a zipped file of how it shifts the plates over time?

	08-03-2001 05:10									#88
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Hey Rüdiger:

Pretty cool stuff! I think it clearly has potential. I think LGJ's suggestions are good, if it's not too much trouble to implement them. Do I get it right that every tile is a plate? That seems a bit odd... But anyway, you are off to a good start, and it looks like it'll turn out great. I'm looking forward to seeing the next step!

	08-03-2001 06:13									#89
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I downloaded the code, but I couldn't figure out how to run it. How do I run the code and/or edit initial plates so I can test it? The picture looks good, but I'd like to see the change in the terrain.

Whenever hot spots are under the ocean, they tend to generate island chains, like Hawaii. I think that would be good to add, since the oceans tlook a little bare now. Islands can be extremely important in warfare and exploring, as WW2, showed.

Are there any plans for integrating this with the disasters model? For example, the fault zones, where plates meet, are where the most earthquakes and volcanoes will occur. The hot spots are also a source of volcanoes. Perhaps, at the end of the map generation sequence, the code would label the tiles that are prone to these disasters and send that list to the disasters model.

	09-03-2001 07:22									#90
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Ok, I did not have time for coding today. I thought you would download and run the code. Hmmm, maybe I was wrong. Maybe I should try to make an applet out of it, then everyone could see the results. The program already has the abilities LGJ asked for. I think I will convert the program to an applet and add a reasonable user interface. Please be patient, seeing the program in action will answer a lot of your questions. I will do it as soon as I have some spare time again.

Sorry, no quote today.