10-11-2004 07:23									#31
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LOL

Well done EPW!

	10-11-2004 17:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Shadow Can I post the game as is?

Yes, you can. I'll give you a few days extra to submit your results if you want. That goes for everyone else as well of course.

Congrats EPW

	11-11-2004 04:22									#33
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Cheers Loc, give me a bit to get back home and I'll post it asap.

	13-11-2004 13:54									#34
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Apparently I didn't win.

Congrats Lewand.

	15-11-2004 05:52									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Yes, you can. I'll give you a few days extra to submit your results if you want. That goes for everyone else as well of course.

Several people told me they would still like to participate in the tournament but don't have enough time, so I'll extend the tournament with 2 weeks, until 28 November.

If anyone needs more time than that please let me know, but I did plan on having at least one more tournament before the end of the year so please try to finish (or at least submit your result) in time. It's a bit of a pitty that those people who do finish in time have to wait so long for the next tourney every time...

	15-11-2004 06:06									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus It's a bit of a pitty that those people who do finish in time have to wait so long for the next tourney every time...

All two of us

	15-11-2004 07:28									#37
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We're so sad

I dont mind waiting really, I get plenty competitive CtP2 fix.

	17-11-2004 02:39									#38
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There's an issue that should be discussed for the next tournament: in lewand's game, he built far, far more cities than his empire could normally sustain. He managed to do this because he spent the last (few) turn(s) of the game in Anarchy (which has a city limit of 1000) and only came out of it in the very turn in which he was able to win the game. Had the game lasted one turn longer, his entire empire would have revolted due to empire size penalties and he would have lost. In fact, this is exaxtly what happens if you end the turn rather than take the last city in his savegame (though it takes the game a long, long time to process this event).

One might see this as a undesirable exploit to artificially boost the score. However, there's nothing in the rules that forbids this strategy, so obviously his score will be counted normally.

But that begs the question: for future tournaments, should there be an extra condition to prevent such an 'exploit'? Something like: a submitted result is not valid (1) if the victory cannot be postponed one turn and (2) a victory is achieved while the government is in Anarchy or the effects of Anarchy are still active.

What do people think? Should such a rule (or some other rule) be enforced for future tournaments or is leward's strategy acceptable and does not require rule changes?

	17-11-2004 02:54									#39
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It would seem to make more sense to decrease the city limit of Anarchy - ever since I saw how large it was I thought there must be exploits involving it...

Failing that, it does seem a little silly to allow a victory which is futile because if they game were played on for only a few turns the victor's empire would collapse upon itself. This will, however, inevitably be a difficult thing to pin down. Prohibiting victories which cannot be postponed one turn will simply result in victories which cannot be postponed two turns. Banning victories while in anarchy seems a little unfair (overly prohibitive), but OTOH it does seem to fit with the game more (it's hardly a glorious victory to be (not) leading an anarchic state into a bold future). Even then, however, banning victories on the turn after anarchy is a little dubious. Nevertheless, I think this latter solution is probably the better of the two, at least until and unless other similar exploits are uncovered.

	17-11-2004 02:58									#40
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While I admired leward's ingenuity, its not really part of the game so I'd vote for an extra condition next time, like #2 you mentioned. Otherwise we're creating more work for ourselves and we'll all be doing it anyway and for no other reason other than to have the same chance.

	17-11-2004 04:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway It would seem to make more sense to decrease the city limit of Anarchy - ever since I saw how large it was I thought there must be exploits involving it...

Basically I agree, in fact I've argued for this for ages. However, the tournaments use pre-existing mods -- such decisions would be up to the modmakers, not the tournament organiser.

quote: Banning victories while in anarchy seems a little unfair

Well, if someone happens to win a game and 'genuinely' happens to be in Anarchy, they can still win by simply postponing their victory one or two turns -- that shouldn't make much of a difference for the final score (or endyear), while still preventing the exploitation of Anarchy.

	17-11-2004 04:21									#42
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I'll go along with both of those rules.

	17-11-2004 23:11									#43
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Well the problem is, that the startegy we observed, is a tournerment specific strategy. You don't find it under any other conditions. And I don't think that this is the spirit of the tournerment. The spirit of the tournerment is to find the best CTP2 player, and that means who has the best playing style the style that is used in private games and not for a tournerment. So a victory shouldn't be accepted if the empire is damned to collapse soon after the victory. So this means that there must be a way to continue a few turns after the victory without the use of Anarchy. So this means if the empire collapses in the turn after the victory or the victory is postponed one turn and the empire then collapses the game should be invalid, the same should be true if the player is in Anarchy and cannot leave it for one turn without the collapse of his empire. So it isn't a problem whether the player is in Anarchy in the victory turn, but the problem is whether the player can leave Anarchy without the risk to loose the empire.

-Martin

	18-11-2004 01:31									#44
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I just want to say hi, I'm new to the site.
I spent the last 2 turns of the game in Anarchy, because I wanted to enact Democracy (I played all the time Communismus). I don’t need Anarchy to build in last turn 50 cities (#2). I can have 150 cities in the turn of victory and I can postpone my victory one turn or 2 turns and more (#1). The problem is, can man artificially boost the score? What is the spirit of the tournament: competition amongst players, the best score, both of them or something else? Where exactly is the border of the artificiall pumping the score? EPW hat 5 settlers in his last turn. He can build 5 cities and get 50 points extra. Is it allowed? Can man build Wonders (for 500 points each), which aren’t necessary to win? etc... A few newbie questions:
How can I make screenshots and what are they for?
Can I play more than once the same game (I have the advantage of knowing the map and starting locations)? I saved my game each year and if something went wrong, I replayed the last 1 or 2 turns. Is it allowed? If I broke the rules, please erase my score. :
P.S.
Sorry EPW. I didn’t want to spoil your joy of victory. I didn’t think, that time for submit was over.

	18-11-2004 19:29									#45
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quote: Can I play more than once the same game (I have the advantage of knowing the map and starting locations)?

You can only submit officially your first try.

quote: I saved my game each year and if something went wrong, I replayed the last 1 or 2 turns.

That would definitely be against the rules to me...

	19-11-2004 03:15									#46
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Maq I took it to read that he replayed the previous turn or two if the game kept crashing or a bug developed, etc.
I've done that once or twice before, as without playing from a couple of turns back the game is lost.

But if it was just a city or two lost, etc, then replaying turns is a no go.

	19-11-2004 07:17									#47
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i'd agree w/ Martin Gühmann and J Bytheway in that a victory must be postpone-able for more turns whether or not the victory is reached as the player wills, that anarchy should not cause a game to be invalid alone, just as long as non-anarchy will not destroy the empire in the same situation, and finally, that anarchy should no longer have the 1000 city limit, b/c even a country in revolution cannot pull all those people and land together

also, i'd like to introduce the arguement that the mass settling at the end should be legal as long as the sustaining rule is met, b/c that can happened in the middle of the game after any major military victory, not to mention the mass-settle urge RL people would surely feel if the world was at peace or under a single (should be peaceful if they meet my seconded tourney rules) government

Last edited by HuangShang on 19-11-2004 at 07:22

	20-11-2004 23:16									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lewand I spent the last 2 turns of the game in Anarchy, because I wanted to enact Democracy (I played all the time Communismus). I don�t need Anarchy to build in last turn 50 cities (#2). I can have 150 cities in the turn of victory and I can postpone my victory one turn or 2 turns and more (#1).

Well, we have already figured out that one does not need Anarchy to have twice as much cities as the city limit allow in the turn of victory. The question is whether you can keep these cities onces you have got them for just another turn without Anarchy. I doubt that I just can hit end turn in the game you have summitted, without loosing all the cities due to severe unhappy problems. And doubt also that the problem can be handles with heavy usage of entertainers. The only way I see is to go into Anarchy.

quote: Originally posted by lewand The problem is, can man artificially boost the score? What is the spirit of the tournament: competition amongst players, the best score, both of them or something else? Where exactly is the border of the artificiall pumping the score? EPW hat 5 settlers in his last turn. He can build 5 cities and get 50 points extra. Is it allowed? Can man build Wonders (for 500 points each), which aren�t necessary to win? etc...

You hit the border when you do things you wouldn't do in a normal single player game. For instance we all build wonders, we all try to conquer the neighbors, try to event techs and so on. At least we try to build a growing and prospering empire. At least it should collapse at the next occassion. And that is what we have seen in your game.

quote: Originally posted by lewand Can I play more than once the same game (I have the advantage of knowing the map and starting locations)? I saved my game each year and if something went wrong, I replayed the last 1 or 2 turns. Is it allowed?

Well of course as long you don't tell it. Or do you thing we can proove it, whether you opened the cheat editor, studied the map and then relaoded the game.

quote: Originally posted by lewand If I broke the rules, please erase my score. :

You didn't realize that we are talking about future Tournerments not this one, did you.

quote: Originally posted by lewand P.S. Sorry EPW. I didn�t want to spoil your joy of victory. I didn�t think, that time for submit was over.

Well it was Locutus' decision to give more time.

-Martin