09-11-2004 08:52									#31
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Also, a common misconception is that this game is about ICs. It isn't. Players competing for ICs will find themselves in drawn-out stalemates ending with someone researching Heavy Bombers.

The reason is simple enough: when the Axis reach production similar to the Allies, it probably has expended its early unit advantage, and with time evening things, the opposing powers will have a similar number of units with a similar production level.

The real Axis advantage (or, more precisely, its slim hope of winning), in truth, relies on its production centers and its starting units being at the right place at the right time. If you play for tactical positions, economic domination will follow. The Axis objective is to crush Russia before Germany is pounded, and the Allied objective is to pfund Germany before Russia is crushed.

In a game between experienced players, this means a 95% Allied victory.

	09-11-2004 10:11									#32
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yep, I learned this playing many, many games on the computer (mine wasn't that buggy)

go for germany and russia. Screw the rest.

yeah sometimes I mess around as Japan and strike at some U.S. territories. but that is largely useless. I only did it for testing purposes.

	09-11-2004 11:04									#33
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Do any of you ever roll for new technology? The people I know don't. They say there's too little chance to be worth the units you could otherwise build instead. I've done all right rolling for technology on the computer, but then that's the computer.

	09-11-2004 12:29									#34
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heavy bombers are really nice

I generally do it when I am 'safe' with a lot of infantry but need some offense (I rarely do it even then...)

action against the Brits is a strong possibility as the Axis (not as strong as against Russia of course... but still strong, and a lot stronger than strikes against the US)

basically you hit Brits territories, a weak british player has the option between defending himself or helping russia, if he doesn't help russia russia dies, if he doesn't defend himself he dies

Jon Miller

	10-11-2004 06:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Brent Do any of you ever roll for new technology? The people I know don't. They say there's too little chance to be worth the units you could otherwise build instead. I've done all right rolling for technology on the computer, but then that's the computer.

The only time when rolling for tech might be a good idea is when your side is clearly losing. That may you might get away with heavy bombers.

Usually, that means Japan rolling when Germany is dead or about to die, or the Western Allies rolling when Russia falls. I've played a game once when Germany, on the brink of defeat, rolled and got industrial tech. God that was ugly for the Allied player. But of course most of the time rolling as Germany is a bad idea, because your goal is to hold as long as possible and hope for Japan to make something big.

	10-11-2004 07:07									#36
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In general I find building any factories to be a waste for the British- you need all the production you can get up in Europe.

So far as defending the continent from Japan, however, there is one deviously clever strategy I used, where I attacked Indochina from India with everything to knock out some of the enemy infantry (retreating after one round), then landed the plane in China.

This forced the Japanese player to throw everything at China, which now had two planes in it, and killed his entire land army.

Immediately afterwards, the US was in Shanghai (possible abuse of the mechanized infantry special rule?) capturing a Japanese factory. On turn 2 the Russians were in Manchuria, and the US was building battleships in Shanghai. Game ended there.

	10-11-2004 07:13									#37
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Huh... if the US was building battleships, how was Russia doing alone against Germany?

	10-11-2004 07:31									#38
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I agree on rolling for new technology: it's only worthwhile as a desperation move.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris In a game between experienced players, this means a 95% Allied victory.

Which is a good reason for liking a factory in India. It leads to a more interesting and balanced game. You are also telling the Axis you think you can win without depending on the optimal Allied strategy of focusing completely on Germany.

Even if the Japanese attack India on the first turn and manage to keep the factory, the Allies need not panic.

	10-11-2004 07:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by solo Even if the Japanese attack India on the first turn and manage to keep the factory, the Allies need not panic.

Really? don't you think the Axis would have a statistical advantage from that point? A Japan IC in India - especially that early - means Africa falls, doesn't it?

Oh and yes, the India IC means a much more interesting game.

	10-11-2004 07:50									#40
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Japan had been put on the defensive (it was completely kicked off the continent)

Russian player was in the position to do very well as he didn't have to worry about the eastern front; in fact he was up some production from Manchuria.

	10-11-2004 10:01									#41
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I never do future tech when I'm losing. I spend it all in infantry.

I actually only get it when I'm winning and have spare IC's to use. Plus it ends the game faster when you are winning if you get heavy bombers or something.

	10-11-2004 10:15									#42
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As the British this has always worked for me:

1. Build nothing but bombers. Two a turn if you can. Continually strat bomb Germany. Invite the Americans to send bombers to join in the fun. Watch Germany starve itself.

2. Send your fighters to reinforce Karelia's defense. Dare Germans to attack.

3. Use your navy to hunt down the German navy and to help out North Africa. If they threaten the UK, attack with what you and the US have and throw in the bombers to assist.

4. Fight a holding action in India and Africa. Have the Americans land troops to help.

Alot of this depends on American cooperation but isn't absolutely necessary. A good player should take advantage of the opportunities you are creating. Of course, if your allies aren't working together then you've already lost. This is true in any game.

	10-11-2004 10:22									#43
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poll question:

As germany, what do you do to the UK on turn 1?

Do you wipe out their navy? I usually do. Although this puts a hurt on german naval and air forces. And if you want to occupy their sea lanes, you have to sacrifice some aircraft (and your transport). But it does buy another turn before they start dropping off troops into your territories.

A lot of you seem to play germany defensively. But I play them offesnively. You have to put a hurtin' on russia. Especially their IPC's. You have to attempt to get Karelia (nothing suicidal of course).

	10-11-2004 10:37									#44
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Sure, go after the UK navy but don't go overboard ( ). Save some energy for Russia. If Russia isn't soon on its knees then you eventually lose.
(Many of my games end with Japan in Moscow anyway.)

	10-11-2004 10:41									#45
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me too. The only time I take Moscow as Germany is when the Japanese have weakened Russia enough with their attack the previous turn and Russia only has enough IPC's left to put like 5 or 6 infantry on its capitol.

But I still try for Karelia. But if the dice rolls aren't with me, and I start slipping. It's infantry all the way.

	10-11-2004 11:12									#46
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I agree, attacking Karelia is almost mandatory. But if the British station their fighters there as I mentioned above and the Russians crank out infantry then it should always hold. Building all tanks on Germany's first turn will be a big help.

	10-11-2004 22:14									#47
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quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash Any idea where to find this java version? And what's this about nation-specific rules? The only nation specific rules I ever remember were for Japan so that airplanes could kamikaze.

Here it is:

TripleA is an open source clone of the popular axis and allies boardgame.

The game supports network play, alternative rule sets, and is easy to customize.


http://triplea.sourceforge.net/

	10-11-2004 22:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I agree, attacking Karelia is almost mandatory. But if the British station their fighters there as I mentioned above and the Russians crank out infantry then it should always hold. Building all tanks on Germany's first turn will be a big help.

Usually, I only attack Karelia if Japan did well against Russia on turn 1. (i.e, holding Manchuria or something like this).

	10-11-2004 22:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Really? don't you think the Axis would have a statistical advantage from that point? A Japan IC in India - especially that early - means Africa falls, doesn't it? Oh and yes, the India IC means a much more interesting game.

Maybe a slight edge for the Axis, but much depends on how the early turns have gone elsewhere on the map. Africa may be lost momentarily, but will be regained soon enough by the U.K. & the U.S. from the Atlantic side.

In games where the U.K. does not build factories on the first turn, Africa can be easily taken by Germany, so it falls anyways. They can also threaten India early.

Also, the Japanese can go after India even if the U.K. do not build a factory there. For sure, they lose the quick advantage of an immediate and free factory, but they can build their own. Then from India they pose a threat to Africa and can also be in a position to support Germany earlier.

Dissident,

In answer to your poll, I almost always take out the U.K. fleet on the first German turn, unless the Russians have made a mistake, by not building 8 infantry and defending Karelia to the hilt.

I like to be aggressive with the Germans, too, but going all out against a properly defended Karelia early tends to be a do or die affair. If the attack is not blessed with better than average luck, Germany just speeds up its own demise. If the attack succeeds, then Russia should fall soon and the Russian will congratulate the German on his great luck during the battle for Karelia, and give this as the reason for losing the game. To me, it seems a bit of a hollow victory. I've had many games where the Germans were able to build up enough for an attack with better odds. When Japan is played well, the Germans can often make a successful move into Russia a bit later on. For me, winning this way is more satisfactory. However, if Japan is not being played well, trying to cripple Russia early is probably Germany's best (and probably only) chance for winning the game.

Vince,

Bombers can not take territories. I think it's better for the U.K. & U.S. to build infantry and a fleet, first. Once you have a very secure foothold somewhere in Europe, then some bombers can be used to take away Germany's cash.

	11-11-2004 04:01									#50
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The most effective unit as far as taking and holding ground is infantry. They are the cheapest unit in the game and are well worth money. Infantry is for protecting vital attack pieces and for absorbing hits, along with defense.

A British Indian factory cranking out constant tanks is probably one of the better ways to get Britain into play quickly. It also has an added benefit of hurting the Japanese quite a bit.

The longer Russia survives intact, the lower the chance of an Axis win. If British tanks are forcing the Japanese into wasting time in Indochina, then this is removing troops from Russia, giving them vital breathing room and eventually a quicker German defeat.

	11-11-2004 10:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by solo Vince, Bombers can not take territories.

Don't have to. Germany becomes a pushover in short order after denying it cash. The Russians can crush it with their massed defensive Karelia infantry and a few tanks.

This strategy is team oriented. The British won't be in a position to take out Germany themselves but they can make it possible for others. If your players play "every man for themselves" they will lose everytime against team players. Both styles require entirely different sets of strategies.

	11-11-2004 12:40									#52
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I'm convinced the Axis are hopeless

I know I've won with them before, but I don't know how.

I played a couple of games (computer Iron Blitz version). against myself. I played all players. I played each nation as I would if I wanted to win. I used the best strategy for each. So the competition should be fair. I was using the Iron Blitz version of A & A, but I didn't use any of the iron blitz units.

Both games I had it so Russia cannot attack the first round. The second game I gave the Axis advantage (which gives germany jet fighters and japan super subs). An interesting note is the second game I played scorched earth. That led to some interesting consequences. I didn't always use scorched earth. But I did in Germany and Italy . Even though germany had some cash at one point, and was able to buy units, they couldn't place them (I had taken over germany and southern europe at various points with UK and U.S. and burned their factories to the ground). It's hard to say how scorched earth affects the strategy. With Japan I kept the factory in Russia as I had enough troops to defend it.

The first game was a blowout, not even close. Germany got their ass whooped.

The second game was much closer. This time I chose a defensive approach with germany. Although I still did strike out at african territories and 1 russian territory (in this case Stalingrad area- caucuasus or whatever its called- Karelia was to heavily defended). But I bought all infantry instead of all tanks. They lasted longer, but eventually faltered. In the second game I was able to capture Russia with Japan. But germany was toast. I could not get them back. In the second game I didn't devote any resources to China and India. I went straight for Moscow. And only because of good die rolls was I able to take it. (after 2 prior attempts against superior odds).

I just can't see how the axis can win. Even with the axis advantage rules and russia can't attack first rule.

The cool thing about Iron Blitz is you can alter the units for each nation individually. I haven't tried that. I'm thinking about giving germany tanks a attack of 4 and defense of 3. And perhaps I'll give japanese fighters an attack of 4.

	12-11-2004 02:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 1. Build nothing but bombers. Two a turn if you can. Continually strat bomb Germany. Invite the Americans to send bombers to join in the fun. Watch Germany starve itself.

It sounded like just bombers for the Allies from your post. Even if you limit it to U.K. bombers, I think I would like to try the Axis against your opening strategy.

	12-11-2004 04:08									#54
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anyone have any suggestions for my axis strategy? I can't seem to win with them even with axis advantage rules and russia can't attack first rules.

Which suggests to me when the allies employ the tank and transport strategy (which is the only one I use anymore), the axis don't stand a chance.

the tanks and transport strategy is pretty easy.U.S. and U.K. build tanks and transports and attack germany . Russia builds nothing but infantry.

	12-11-2004 06:13									#55
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I always have trouble playing Germany well but I rule with Japan. Put an IC on the mainland on turn 1 and 2 then crank out the tanks. Land with everything you have on the mainland ignoring the US, then hunt down the US fleet with yours.

	12-11-2004 13:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 I have many fond memories of the three games. Don't remember a Roman one.

Ah I found it... it's called Conquest of the Empire. Some information here http://www.visi.com/~spookshow/cote.html

	12-11-2004 16:56									#57
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Thanks!

	12-11-2004 21:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident anyone have any suggestions for my axis strategy? I can't seem to win with them even with axis advantage rules and russia can't attack first rules.

I agree. When the Allies focus entirely on wiping out Germany, it's tough to win as the Axis.

However, I think most Axis players assume success depends on capturing Russia; but by the time this is possible, Germany is usually dead or nearly so. So if the U.K. & U.S. focus entirely on Germany, it is often possible for the Axis to get up to 84 IPC without taking Russia. Germany can often hold onto its European territories long enough for this to occur, if it works with Japan towards this 84 IPC goal.

84 IPC can be attained by taking all of the weak U.K. and U.S. territiories, as well as those in Asia around the Russian capital. Targetting weak U.K. and U.S. territories early also reduces their income, which delays their ability to cripple Germany.

Germany can start by building a transport and 8 infantry and by taking out the British fleet. Afterwards, Africa and even India can be captured quickly to build up IPC's which can be spent on infantry at home to build up a solid defense.

Meanwhile, Japan starts by taking out the U.S. fleet and China, and builds a lot of infantry and enough of a fleet to get them wherever needed quickly. Japan continues by taking the easiest targets as it expands in all directions. Australia & New Zealand should be taken early.

Japan can pester the U.S. by taking easy targets like Hawaii, Alaska, Mexico, Panama and Brazil. It only takes a small early presence near Western U.S, to force the U.S. to defend there, diverting some of their resources from the attack on Germany. An imposing Japanese fleet can reach the Atlantic via the Panama quickly and then go after the American and U.K. fleet being used to attack Germany. Brazil can often be used to build a factory to assist this effort.

Doing these things does not mean that Japan ignores Russia. In fact, the extra income generated from remote U.K. & U.S. territories allows quick and un-interrupted progress into Russian territories, too. When the Allies are left with fewer resources and an additional way losing the game, the odds of Germany's survival can change dramatically for the good.

Many will probably dismiss this strategy without trying it. It is by no means a guarantee of success, and I probably lose more then half the games I try it with, but I know it has also won many games for me against players who believe the Axis are doomed from the start. One caveat is that I do use the "no Russian attacks on the first turn" rule, which is often enough help to give the Axis a fair chance at winning.

(Sorry, mixing up the canals. I edited to change Suez to Panama, which does make a difference!)

	12-11-2004 23:43									#59
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your post does give me an idea though. My strategy focussed too much on taking the capitol of russia against all odds (the odss will nearly always be against you if russia places all their infantry there)

I disagree about taking Australia. Maybe Alaska though (this works to divert forces that would be heading towards germany- the U.S. would be foolish to leave the western u.s open.)

I still say Japan should take over Asia. But stop at the capitol of Russia. But do take over the other russian territories south and east of the capitol.

I realize I wasn't focussing enough on the IPC victory.

In the future I think I'll devote more to taking over India and China. And then streaming into Africa before I assault the capitol of Russia. Taking over capitols is such hard work.

the one caveat of this strategy is Russia will eventually accumulate a lot of infantry in their capitol and will strike back at Japanese held territories once they realize the safety of their capitol is not at stake.

	13-11-2004 00:22									#60
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Australia & NZ are taken for two reasons, and this can be done while in the process of collecting Japanese infantry from all of those Pacific islands (it is worthwhile rounding them up):

1) This shifts 3 IPC's into the Axis column that the Allies are never expected to regain.

2) Both are probably needed to reach the 84 IPC total.

Japan is still able to exert pressure on the Russian capital. Once most of the outlying U.K. and U.S. territories have been taken, 3 factories can be built in Asia and a steady stream of tanks from them, plus 8 or so infantry a turn from Japan itself can exert a lot of pressure there.

However, there are other ways to go, even a chance to go on the offensive along with Germany in the Atlantic. A lot of mobility & flexibility is built into this strategy, which tries to make the most out of the best navy provided at the start, rather than have it just sit around.