07-11-2004 20:24									#31
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Flat tax simplification is a myth.
The vast majority of the IRS code is devoted to defining what is and what is not earned income. This will not change under a flat tax. Most of the work that IRS does is devoted to keeping track of earned income. This will not change under a flat tax.

Under Plato's system the poor will pay about the same amount in taxes that they pay now (pretty much 0).
There will be a certain segment of the middle class (the lower portion, but not sure where it tops out) that will pay more in taxes than they pay now.
Everyone else will pay less in taxes than they pay now.

Is this what you really want? Just like the majority of voting Americans wanted Bush, the majority of voting Americans do not want this.

	07-11-2004 20:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by pchang In that case, Social Security must be eliminated. In its present form it is the most regressive tax there is.

At the same time, everyone who pays into it in teory draws the same benefit from it, unlike the general budget, where this is not true.

	07-11-2004 20:43									#33
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what exactly do you mean by same benefit? people get different SS benefits depending upon their SS income during the top 10 quarters of their life.

	07-11-2004 20:44									#34
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What does social security pay for?

	07-11-2004 20:45									#35
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And don;t the people who earned more pay higher payroll taxes, thus in the end making the correlation between what you paid in and what you will get roughtly the same amongst different income brackets coming in at the same time into the system?

	07-11-2004 20:47									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin What does social security pay for?

Social Security is what we call the public pension system. Tough the government also pays out of that ssytem for disability pensions for those that had been working. If you recieve any other type of public pension, you do not get Social Security, thought people who get private pensions still can get Social security.

	07-11-2004 20:50									#37
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I only ask as the equivalent input payments here for National Insurance are just another form of taxation with no direct funding correlation to output payments.

	07-11-2004 20:50									#38
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Social security pays a small benefit to old and disabled people because they are old and or disabled.

Gepap,
If your claim is that SS provides the same proportional benefits based upon what you paid in, then I don't see why you think this is not the case with the general fund. Don't you think that rich people who pay more into the general fund benefit more from the general fund than poor people who pay less?

	07-11-2004 20:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Under Plato's system the poor will pay about the same amount in taxes that they pay now (pretty much 0). There will be a certain segment of the middle class (the lower portion, but not sure where it tops out) that will pay more in taxes than they pay now. Everyone else will pay less in taxes than they pay now.

The $50K limit is just arbitrary. It could be $75K or whatever number causes that lower middle class tax burden to be level or decreased.


You are VERY correct thoughin insinuating that the definitions of earned income need some serious looks.

	07-11-2004 21:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Social security pays a small benefit to old and disabled people because they are old and or disabled. Gepap, If your claim is that SS provides the same proportional benefits based upon what you paid in, then I don't see why you think this is not the case with the general fund. Don't you think that rich people who pay more into the general fund benefit more from the general fund than poor people who pay less?

Yes, the rich people who pay more into the general fund do benefit more, hence it is right that they pay more, thus, keep our progresive tax structure and say no to a flat tax.

	07-11-2004 21:07									#41
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Glad I could help you keep on the right track.

	07-11-2004 21:19									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Yeah, I know, but everybody has to play the deduction game every year to get it there. I'm just wondering if you could make it that simple and still have a sound tax system that was nevertheless just.

It's already pretty simple, unless you have a business.

	07-11-2004 21:33									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak So it's fair for him to have to pay $70k in taxes a year, and you to pay $3680?

Yes. He benefits disproportiontely more from our government protections. It's a geometric progretion, not an arithmatic one.

Now, if the actual amount your father pays is $70K a year in income taxes he's making $265,000 a year, not counting for deductions. Add in deductions, exemptions, etc. and with that specific number on taxes, he's probably making close to $300K a year. So, in actuality, your father only paid 23% of his income in income taxes.

That's assuming you didn't simply multiply $175K * 40% to come up with the $70K number. If your father made $175K, then he paid $39K in income taxes, not accounting for deductions and what not. Add those in and he paid around $31K in incomes taxes, which is around 18%.

So stop whining.

	07-11-2004 21:34									#44
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quote: Don't talk about fiarness liberterian, cause real fairness would be everyone paying the same percentage on the same earnings.

Why? What do earnings have to do with anything? Earnings simply represent a private agreement between two parties, and have nothing to do with the government.

	07-11-2004 21:38									#45
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Earnings simply represent a private agreement between two parties, and have nothing to do with the government.

We're talking about fairness, not the government.

	07-11-2004 23:04									#46
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Kaak you are arguing with people who are a lost cause to society. These people are cast out, on the fringes of a reality only they live in. These are the same people that hail the terrorists as freedom fighters and "sympathize" with people like Osama Bin Laden. These are the same people that hear about a man committing suicide over the election and call it an act of symbolism and bravery. Luckily for us these people are in the minority and they always will be as long as people who live in the real world exist. Their constant whining and distress over being the losers of the country only further satiate my palate. I look down upon the miscreants of Apolyton with grim amusement at their pathetic excuses for "ideals". Oh yes, all hail the People's Republic of Apolyton, yes indeed.

	07-11-2004 23:22									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Their constant whining and distress over being the losers of the country only further satiate my palate. I look down upon the miscreants of Apolyton with grim amusement at their pathetic excuses for "ideals". Oh yes, all hail the People's Republic of Apolyton, yes indeed.

	08-11-2004 00:21									#48
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The IRS always gets a bad rap. If the politicians used the money more efficiently (read: more pork in my state) then I wouldn't complain.

	08-11-2004 01:06									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Kaak you are arguing with people who are a lost cause to society. These people are cast out, on the fringes of a reality only they live in. These are the same people that hail the terrorists as freedom fighters and "sympathize" with people like Osama Bin Laden. These are the same people that hear about a man committing suicide over the election and call it an act of symbolism and bravery. Luckily for us these people are in the minority and they always will be as long as people who live in the real world exist. Their constant whining and distress over being the losers of the country only further satiate my palate. I look down upon the miscreants of Apolyton with grim amusement at their pathetic excuses for "ideals". Oh yes, all hail the People's Republic of Apolyton, yes indeed.

You really are a one-trick pony.... all you do is launch personal attacks against people because you are incapable of forming a coherent argument.

The few arguments I've heard you make are shallow, vapid, tiresome, and mostly sardonic blather. Go step in front of a bus and do humanity a favor.

	08-11-2004 02:17									#50
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You should take your own advice. A simple history of your posts will prove that you are a 1 line poster. I'm sorry if you were simply incapable of comprehending what I wrote up there.

	08-11-2004 02:24									#51
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aw, I was expecting some inane comment about my mental health...

I'm a 1 line poster? interesting...

	08-11-2004 03:36									#52
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No I must say Malevolent Light, I read that post pretty indepth (god knows why I bothered) and Sava pretty much summed it up right. Oh wait, I'm another retarded pot smoking liberal whackjob that voted for the Democrats in the make believe land of the free (except that I'm actually in NZ), my bad.

	08-11-2004 03:42									#53
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quote: Oh wait, I'm another retarded pot smoking liberal whackjob that voted for the Democrats in the make believe land of the free (except that I'm actually in NZ), my bad.

No, you described New Zealand perfectly.

	08-11-2004 04:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley But where'd we create new jobs for all the people currently employed by the IRS?

Ship em to Canada with the liberals.

	08-11-2004 04:07									#55
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quote: Ship em to Canada with the liberals.

New Zealand will probably take them too.

	08-11-2004 04:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Lets see... I'll make this very simple for you. A person makes $1,000,000. 65% of that is $650,000. A person makes $20,000 (around the poverty line). 92% of that is $18,400. The poor guy can hardly make ends meet (if he can do it at all). He can't any retraining for a newer, better job because the government doesn't have the money to teach him new skills. He will always be on the lower end. His kids will be on the lower end. They may turn to crime, who knows, because the neighborhood the poor guy is living in has crappy schools, because property tax revenue low. And what hope is there of paying for his kid's college making so little? Which one would you rather be? I'm very far from being a socialist, but I find people who say it is 'fair' to have a flax tax to be utter morons in every sense of the word.

Imran? Imran? Are you ill?

	08-11-2004 04:38									#57
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quote: I'm very far from being a socialist, but I find people who say it is 'fair' to have a flax tax to be utter morons in every sense of the word.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that. Lets just call you a middle of the line liberal and be done with this pretending to be a conservative stuff.

	08-11-2004 04:40									#58
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quote: We're talking about fairness, not the government.

No, we talking about taxes. I'm not interested in fairness when private, voluntary agreements are the issue - people can and should look out for their own interests. If you can non-coercively negotiate an unfair contract, I'm not gonna stop you.

	08-11-2004 05:09									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Kaak you are arguing with people who are a lost cause to society. These people are cast out, on the fringes of a reality only they live in. These are the same people that hail the terrorists as freedom fighters and "sympathize" with people like Osama Bin Laden. These are the same people that hear about a man committing suicide over the election and call it an act of symbolism and bravery. Luckily for us these people are in the minority and they always will be as long as people who live in the real world exist. Their constant whining and distress over being the losers of the country only further satiate my palate. I look down upon the miscreants of Apolyton with grim amusement at their pathetic excuses for "ideals". Oh yes, all hail the People's Republic of Apolyton, yes indeed.

Kaak and Floyd:

ML agrees with you. You lose.

	08-11-2004 06:15									#60
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Kaak, describe your Dad's yearly income and his itemized deductions to me. Does he have an IRA? Does he have investments such as stocks and bonds? Does he owe back taxes? Does he have any partnership interests? Does he operate a sole proprietorship?