16-11-2004 09:38									#31
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Jesus Christ. Now advocating abstinence makes you a fundy? I have no use for such a standard.

	16-11-2004 09:40									#32
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Teaching kid that having sex before marriage is wrong is just a stupid discredited Victorian ideal, it sure sucks.

	16-11-2004 09:40									#33
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isn't Chirac the leader of France's mainstream (as opposed to National Front) conservative party?

	16-11-2004 09:41									#34
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn We helped them in the Falklands?

Sure as heck did. The British supply system couldn't keep up with the demands so the US not only flew all of the supplies for them but Reagan arranged for interest free loans to finance the equipment plus offered to give the British one American aircraft carrier under the old lend lease act.

Reagan also publically said he believed the UK had been attacked and under the NATO treaty it would be the UK's right to call for collective defense. Thatcher declined and instead asked Reagan to help her get her men the warmaterial and supplies they needed plus help finance the British war effort.

No direct US troops were involved in fighting but that was mostly because Maggie wanted to prove old John Bull could still stand on his own.

	16-11-2004 09:42									#35
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And it's also dangerous. Teenagers will **** anyway, so it's better for public health to show them how to use a condom, teach them the importance of the pill, etc.

	16-11-2004 09:42									#36
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AS: He is. But mainstream conservatives in France aren't quite like the mainstream conservatives in the rest of Europe and bear little resemblance to US mainstream conservatives.

	16-11-2004 09:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer isn't Chirac the leader of France's mainstream (as opposed to National Front) conservative party?

Yes.

	16-11-2004 09:42									#38
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quote: Teaching kid that having sex before marriage is wrong is just a stupid discredited Victorian ideal, it sure sucks.

i have the feeling that in a few decades, even you Europeans will look back at your current decadence and be shocked by it, just as the Victorians were appalled at the decadence of Versailles. You'll praise the advancing progress of civilization for ridding Europe of such decadence.

	16-11-2004 09:43									#39
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Speer, I think it's ok to present opposing views on sexuality, but it's really a personal choice, education should be the norm, not propaganda.

	16-11-2004 09:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris You could be surprised. More often than not America is the hindrance to genuine free trade, not its partners. It's because they usually can force one-way trade overture at the detriment of others.

Other then agriculture can you name an example? I know the anti-dumping laws piss alot of trade partners off and there is room for abuse but by and large they make free trade more likely by preventing mass unrest with the effects of free trade.

	16-11-2004 09:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Which religious groups are considered normal in Finland? Any? I would really like to know.

Well mainly these: Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity(evangelic-lutheran, orthodox and catholic. The lutheran church is totally different fromits american cosin.), Atheism.

Weird religions include: New Age, Wiccan, Satanism, Mormons, Jehovas Wittnesses, Pentecostal church, The Körts and the Lestadians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lestadians

	16-11-2004 09:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i have the feeling that in a few decades, even you Europeans will look back at your current decadence and be shocked by it, just as the Victorians were appalled at the decadence of Versailles. You'll praise the advancing progress of civilization for ridding Europe of such decadence.

They don't have widespread problems with things like teenage pregnancy the way we do.

	16-11-2004 09:49									#43
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quote: Speer, I think it's ok to present opposing views on sexuality, but it's really a personal choice, education should be the norm, not propaganda.

what's the difference? I see the alternatives to stressing abstinence (giving out condoms) as a form of propaganda... a much stronger form that indoctrinates children into believing that sex is good; hell, they even give out condoms for us to have sex!

for us in the land of the free, teaching kids about condoms serves a contingency purpose. we want our kids to be abstinent firstly.

	16-11-2004 09:50									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Other then agriculture can you name an example? I know the anti-dumping laws piss alot of trade partners off and there is room for abuse but by and large they make free trade more likely by preventing mass unrest with the effects of free trade.

Recently, there have been the cases of Canadian lumber and beef.

Re unrest, you could have an ironic point, you mean that they don't want to press issues too much to avoid stirring up opposition?

	16-11-2004 09:51									#45
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quote: They don't have widespread problems with things like teenage pregnancy the way we do.

they get abortions... here in america, most americans have some qualms with aborting their baby.

	16-11-2004 09:53									#46
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I don't know Speer, I haven't looked at the situation to know all the factors involved.

But the numbers are extremley startling.

	16-11-2004 09:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer what's the difference? I see the alternatives to stressing abstinence (giving out condoms) as a form of propaganda... a much stronger form that indoctrinates children into believing that sex is good; hell, they even give out condoms for us to have sex!

There might be a side effect to talking openly about sexuality, and that would be overpromoting it, but in any case it seems preferable to teen pregnancies and uninformed people spreading STDs.

quote: for us in the land of the free, teaching kids about condoms serves a contingency purpose. we want our kids to be abstinent firstly.

huh? what do condoms have to do with abstinence, and then, I doubt the "we" talking here is much inclusive.

	16-11-2004 09:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris You've got it, if religion has such a broad appeal then it's because your country is more tolerant to obscurantism. For most civilized people, a president who has no problem with teaching evolution in school, encouraging abstinence, and imposing his morality on others is a fundie. If you don't think it's fundamentalism, then you are the ones in trouble.

Encouraging teaching of evolution??? I think this is the generally accepted scientific view on how creatures came into their current configuration. If you OTOH are trying to imply W is for creationism teaching in schools you'll pardon me if ask for a source and/or cite.

Encouraging abstinence?? Wow!! Thats a bit of a shocker considering it is the best means to have effecitivity against sexually transmitted diseases as well as teen pregnancy. Is it realistic to think that abstinence is going to be adheared to, of course not, but it should be a societal goal to prevent the aforementioned ills. Failing that monogamy and then as last resort proper training and encouragement of use of condoms. Whats so friggin hard to understand?

Imposing morality - This you have a point in the context of gay marriage.

	16-11-2004 09:54									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer they get abortions... here in america, most americans have some qualms with aborting their baby.

I've always wondered why is it that here abortion is widely accepted but capital punishment isnt, in the US it seems to be the other way round...

	16-11-2004 09:56									#50
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Boris:

Can we agree that abstinence is an ideal? If not, then we have a big gulf seperating the moral outlook of most americans and most Europeans. Even for practical matters, abstinence is the 100% successful way to prevent all these STDs and pregnancies you speak of.

we still have condoms though but as a contingency. for those who are too weak to be abstinent.

	16-11-2004 09:57									#51
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laurentius:

quote: I've always wondered why is it that here abortion is widely accepted but capital punishment isnt, in the US it seems to be the other way round...

one individual is guilty of a heinous crime... the other hasn't even been born and is more innocent than anyone can be.

	16-11-2004 09:57									#52
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FakeBoris is not a Euro. He's Quebecois.

	16-11-2004 09:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe If you OTOH are trying to imply W is for creationism teaching in schools you'll pardon me if ask for a source and/or cite.

Didn't he increase funding to religious schools, indirectly promoting it? And maybe I'm wrong, but couldn't he use his presidential powers to veto referendums about teaching creationism in SCIENCE classes?

quote: Encouraging abstinence?? Wow!! Thats a bit of a shocker considering it is the best means to have effecitivity against sexually transmitted diseases as well as teen pregnancy. Is it realistic to think that abstinence is going to be adheared to, of course not, but it should be a societal goal to prevent the aforementioned ills. Failing that monogamy and then as last resort proper training and encouragement of use of condoms. Whats so friggin hard to understand?

That's the point, abstinence won't be adhered to, therefore it's not a good way to prevent STDs. Sticking to an inefficient doctrine because of religious beliefs is a sort of fundamentalism.

	16-11-2004 10:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer laurentius: one individual is guilty of a heinous crime... the other hasn't even been born and is more innocent than anyone can be.

Who are we to judge? One of the Ten Commandments is, do not kill. What gives you as a society mandate to act God.

The thing is that here we dont consider an unborn child individual at all.

	16-11-2004 10:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Boris: Can we agree that abstinence is an ideal? If not, then we have a big gulf seperating the moral outlook of most americans and most Europeans. Even for practical matters, abstinence is the 100% successful way to prevent all these STDs and pregnancies you speak of.

Yes, and locking people in their homes is the best way to prevent crime. But sadly it's counter-productive and unrealistic.

quote: we still have condoms though but as a contingency. for those who are too weak to be abstinent.

Those who can't score are weak too.

	16-11-2004 10:03									#56
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Chirac's views that you have to extract promises from the US to do this or that is really ridiculous. It's not as if the US and UK have a ledger to compare what we do for them and what they do for us.

Blair can call up the WH at any time and get a good, friendly hearing. If we are in the position to do the UK a good turn, we will do so enthusiastically. It's not the same with Chirac and France.

	16-11-2004 10:04									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Recently, there have been the cases of Canadian lumber and beef.

I forgot about NYE's much vried over softwood ( ) though I'd say the mad cow ban is pretty good as it only bans those parts most likely to be infected while the rest can come in. Until the Canadian government can certify that it's beef is safe for consumers isn't it prudent not to sell it?

quote: Re unrest, you could have an ironic point, you mean that they don't want to press issues too much to avoid stirring up opposition?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Do you agree?

	16-11-2004 10:06									#58
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quote: Yeah, they should be held in debt because Germany declared war on you.

Germany never would have declared war on us if the French didn't collapse like a house of cards. I don't know if Europe can ever pay the US back for what it has done over the decades - WWI, WWII, the Cold War, the Balkans. So y'all don't agree with Iraq? Fine, neither do I. But given our track record of assistance I'd think you would give us a pass on Saddam.

	16-11-2004 10:09									#59
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Chirac is pretty much right. Blair looks like a complete doofus in the eyes of the world (exluding the Home Counties and the Red States).

Blair is lame. The only reason he'll get elected again is that the Tories are even more pathetic.

	16-11-2004 10:09									#60
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quote: Who are we to judge? One of the Ten Commandments is, do not kill. What gives you as a society mandate to act God.

thou shalt not MURDER... Lotm can clarify, but i'm pretty sure the bible explicitly gives quite a bit of leeway with respect to this... in fact, it demands execution as punishment for crimes.