22-11-2004 01:15									#121
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"despite the fact that we shouldn't have gone in there, it is now in our vital interests to see that Iraq doesn't became what Afganistan was or what Somolia is, a haven for those who would murder us."


Agreed! As wrong as it was to be Israels attack dog, to leave now would be worse.

As temtping as it is, I can see now that sudden withdrawal would have real bad consequences.

A terrible situation for soldiers and the iraqi people. They could be there quite a while.

	22-11-2004 01:17									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I thought you would at least approve of Clintons war on Haiti to install a communist president?

Why would I approve of that? I don't give a **** about Haiti or whatever kind of president they have. Or was this a pathetic way of calling me a commie?

	22-11-2004 01:18									#123
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara News flash, Ned: Commies don't always agree. In any event, what was good for the Communist Parties of Iraq isn't necessarily good for the world. The Iraqi communists have an open space in which to advance their politics (and are doing quite well, as a matter of fact, garnering up to 25% of the vote). My duty as an American communist, however, is to oppose imperialism, and so I do.

Why of course, Che. But the Commie Parties in Iraq would strongly disagree that this war was a good example of American Imperialism because it resulted in their liberation. Perhaps you commies ought to get together in some sort of international forum to see if you can get your stories straight.

	22-11-2004 01:20									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I thought you would at least approve of Clintons war on Haiti to install a communist president?

Less than 1,000 people died. Technically it wasn't a war. Also, the invasion was done in order to forestall the impending revolution in Haiti, which might have gone communist in a real way, and not in a Ned way. The way the occupation of Haiti was carried out ment that the murderers in the previous government were immune to prosecution, and those that tried to obtain justice for their people were jailed. Those people that Clinton protected today again rule Haiti.

	22-11-2004 01:20									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Perhaps you commies ought to get together in some sort of international forum to see if you can get your stories straight.

It's against U.S. law for American commies to be part of such an international forum.

	22-11-2004 01:23									#126
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's against U.S. law for American commies to be part of such an international forum.

Really?

What do you call Apolyton?

	22-11-2004 01:28									#127
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This's a differnt kind of fourm. Let me put it this way. If the Communist Party of Apolyton were a real organization, it would be illegal for Americans to belong to it. Americans may not belong to members of international revolutionary organizations. Any forum were we all got together to discuss strategy would very likely be considered such an organization by the U.S.

	22-11-2004 01:42									#128
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I take it, then, that the SDS and the Weathermen were not illegal per se because they had no provable contacts with communists outside the US or perhaps because they labelled themselves as something else.

	22-11-2004 01:56									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I take it, then, that the SDS and the Weathermen were not illegal per se because they had no provable contacts with communists outside the US or perhaps because they labelled themselves as something else.

Correct, though the Weathermen were a terrorist group, and so presumably illegal on that count. Nor is it illegal to have contacts with groups from other countries. Americans cannot belong to revolutionary organizations that cross U.S. borders. So if I met with Castro, it would be fine, as long as I didn't join the Cuban Communist Party (or engaged in other activity prohibited by U.S. law, such as going to Cuba).

	22-11-2004 04:15									#130
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I oppose most of America's wars, though not the war in Afganistan. In fact, I am conflicted about Iraq, because despite the fact that we shouldn't have gone in there, it is now in our vital interests to see that Iraq doesn't became what Afganistan was or what Somolia is, a haven for those who would murder us.

well said

	22-11-2004 07:46									#131
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Okay. Glad you asked. The war in Iraq was about two things: 1.) Political power (on a nation-state level), and 2.) Reshaping the face of the Middle East ( in the end analysis, #2 is the same as #1)

So, you butchered tens of thousands of your fellow human beings for the sake of abstract political power?

Joy. Oh, the morality of it all.

May I call Bush a war crimininal?

	22-11-2004 08:03									#132
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Yes the war was justified. The left's thesis is irrelvant to the issue. In the end analysis, if we are successful in Iraq, their argument will be a footnote in history.

So... what are your objectives in Iraq?

	22-11-2004 08:23									#133
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A couple of things. It's really funny to see someone with the moniker "Plato" justifying a might is right doctrine.

Secondly:

quote: I think that this is the fundamental difference between the left and the right. In order to assure our continued place in the world, and therefore our ultimate security, I believe we should become involved where these particular interests are.

It is. The left believe in some form of morality and human decency, the right believe in greed, power and dominance by whatever means they can get away with. If your case is "we can do what we want, so we will", then you are no better than OBL (but we all knew that).

There's no moral defence for your position, but I guess you don't care anyway.

	22-11-2004 09:26									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I'll stop you right here. Since you admit the administration was, at best, disingenuous with the justification for the war, how can you so blithely seperate that out like this? In a democratically-elected government, how can you say the administration misleading people into war isn't a relevant issue? Perhaps I'm not so much a cynic, but you're argument boils down to "The ends justifies the means." I find it hollow and amoral.

Britain, 1914. 'We go to war because Belgium's neutrality is violated'. Real reason: we want the German Navy at the bottom of the sea.

Britain, 1939. 'We go to war because we guaranteed Poland we would.' Real reason: we got owned at Munich and repeated our assurances to the Poles so that we could be sure the country and the Empire would be behind us if Hitler tried again.

US, 1941. 'We do not want war.' Meanwhile: we do everything in our power to antagonise the Japanese and Germans. We embargo the Japanese on oil knowing full well what position that puts them in. We authorise the USN to begin sinking UBoats in international waters. We make speeches that assure Hitler and Tojo that the the United states is neutral in word only.

etc., etc., etc...

What Plato is arguing is nothing new. More like par for the course.

	22-11-2004 09:45									#135
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Of course, none of your examples cited wars of aggression. Iraq wasn't at war with anyone in 2003.

Germany, 1938: "The Germans in Sudetenland are being oppressed. Only we can guarantee peace and security in Czechoslovakia."

USA, 2003: "The Kurds in Kurdistan are being oppressed. Only we can guarantee peace and security in Iraq."

	22-11-2004 09:58									#136
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Actually, the US had as much right to go into Iraq in 2002 as France did to go into Germany in 1937, but what is under discussion is the massaging of issues to get a democratic nation to willingly go to war.

	22-11-2004 10:09									#137
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quote: What Plato is arguing is nothing new. More like par for the course.

And the abject failure of this mentality to solve the world's problems is of course no real reason to stop.

The reason the UN was created was to stop or at least reduce this sort of behaviour. The people who founded it had a rare moment of clarity when they did so.

You'd think people would have learned by now.

	22-11-2004 10:11									#138
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Yep, realism is morally bankrupt (hey Dino ).

	22-11-2004 10:18									#139
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Does anyone have anything other than the cession of some political power to a transnational organization as a solution to the scourge of war?

There isn't any other feasible solution.

	22-11-2004 10:22									#140
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International communist revolution.

	22-11-2004 10:25									#141
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And that is not the transnational organizaton I had in mind, comrade?

	22-11-2004 10:28									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Does anyone have anything other than the cession of some political power to a transnational organization as a solution to the scourge of war? There isn't any other feasible solution.

Conquering the world?

	22-11-2004 10:29									#143
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And how many times has that been tried, and with what success rate?

	22-11-2004 10:31									#144
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If at first you don't succeed...

OTOH, we could just nuke the planet.

	22-11-2004 15:07									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The left believe in some form of morality and human decency, the right believe in greed, power and dominance by whatever means they can get away with. If your case is "we can do what we want, so we will", then you are no better than OBL (but we all knew that).

There is a fundamental truth involved in any charge by the far left:

They are guilty of what they charge. Those charged are innocent.

	22-11-2004 15:27									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: What Plato is arguing is nothing new. More like par for the course. And the abject failure of this mentality to solve the world's problems is of course no real reason to stop. The reason the UN was created was to stop or at least reduce this sort of behaviour. The people who founded it had a rare moment of clarity when they did so. You'd think people would have learned by now.

Have you ever heard of the real reason for the Better Business Bureau?

	22-11-2004 15:55									#147
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I agree with Che's and Plato's case that the real reasons for this war were power-play. Unlike Plato, I give no benefit of the doubt whatsoever to the Bushies, who have willingly manipulated intelligence IMO, in order to bolster their propaganda machine*

I don't think the war in Iraq was in the US' (nor the West's) interest. It proved that even the most powerful military in the world had serious trouble undergoing a "walk in the park" (as Iraq should have been). It has divided the West, despite our common interests at avoiding the emergence of any new nuclear power, especially Iran. It has encouraged Iran to get nukes as soon as possible, while USUK troops are stuck in Iraq.

The only positive result is that a rebuilt Iraq will allow the US to pressure Saudi Arabia... Or even better, it may be possible to ruin Saudi Arabia

I absolutely don't think that a democratic Iraq will help reshaping the ME as a whole, by being an attractive "beacon of democracy". At least not for one generation or two. The political culture of Iraq won't allow a government that is simultaneously democratic, legitimate and powerful for a long time. The Iraqis will have to learn political compromise first, which doesn't come easily at all.

	22-11-2004 16:02									#148
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Hey, Spiffor. Is Che right that the Iraqi Commies could get 20% of the vote? They could be more powerful than any other party in the new legislature.

	22-11-2004 16:30									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Hey, Spiffor. Is Che right that the Iraqi Commies could get 20% of the vote? They could be more powerful than any other party in the new legislature.

I'm don't know precisely how the Commies fare in Iraq, but Communist Parties are among the main opposition parties in ME dictatorships. It's reasonable to assume the Commies will get many votes in Iraq, but I don't know if they'll be the strongest individual party or not.

	22-11-2004 16:43									#150
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I wonder how the Iraqi Commies feel about the US? Most Commies hate the US, but I have a gut feeling that this may not be true of the Iraqi Commies.