01-12-2004 06:36									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster Maybe I should get 2.42. Is it easy put both on one computer? I assume I'd have to re-install civ2 in a new folder and then dl a patch for it?

Peaster,

I can answer this part for you. It is very easy to have the many versions of Civ on a computer; just create separate folders for each one, MPGE, ToT, FW, Civ3, and the original or classic Civ2 from Microprose. You will have to search around for that game disk and then download the 2.42 patch. (You will not be able to apply the 2.42 patch to the Multiplayer game--if that is what you were thinking by using the word "re-install.") The game is not so easy to find, but there used to be links to sources on this site. Ebay is another possible place to look. Happy Hunting!!

Monk
(The links for buying old games were removed as part of the PLUS package, oddly enough. )

	01-12-2004 08:11									#32
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Both versions of Civ2 can be run on the same computer. I played a lot of MGE before 2.42. The only really noticeable difference between the 2.42 & MGE AI is that their attitudes towards you deteriorate faster in MGE.

	01-12-2004 12:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster Maybe I should get 2.42. Is it easy put both on one computer? I assume I'd have to re-install civ2 in a new folder and then dl a patch for it?

It is certainly easy to put 2.42 and another version on the same computer if you start with the version that comes (came?) on the FW CD. As far as I can recollect, I did exactly what you said. Installed it in a new folder and then patched it to 2.42. However, I'm not sure how easy it is if you are starting with MGE. I think that MGE is a later version, so I'm not sure it will patch back to 2.42. But there are a lot of more knowledgable people around who can confirm or deny this.

RJM at Sleeper's

/edit After posting I realised that Monk had already mentioned the difficulty in going from MGE to 2.42. /edit

	02-12-2004 02:18									#34
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Peaster, I mean the very beginning, let us say first 6 cities. My 6 cities are in ICS style and I think this is a reason why they are faster.

	02-12-2004 05:41									#35
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Thanks for advice on 2.42 !

ST - I too call myself an ICSer, though solo and zenon have convinced me that a slightly slower rate of growth is OK. They tend to make fewer cities, but produce as many shields as I do before 1AD.

I use 2200BC as a benchmark year. The average number of cities in that year is 5, based on games by DaveV, solo, zenon, and myself. Many of those include some luck from huts.

In this game, I made my 6th city in 2250BC, 3 turns later than you. I think we were both growing pretty fast, compared to all the games I've seen. And neither of us had especially good luck until after that date.

I don't understand why you stopped at 7 cities.... maybe one of those well-known rules that I don't know or have forgotten.

Also, I wonder if you have tried your strategy on continental maps. Is it harder to get big trade bonuses then ?

	02-12-2004 22:06									#36
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Peaster wrote:
>I don't understand why you stopped at 7 cities.... maybe one of those well-known rules that I don't know or have forgotten.

With 7 cities you get a bonus when defending against barbs in cities. Look to thread about barbs in GL, also Info:combat should contain it.

>Also, I wonder if you have tried your strategy on continental maps. Is it harder to get big trade bonuses then ?

No, I didn't try it, I don't play very often, so this was my 2nd EL game.
If you deliver caravans between cities on identical continents then the cara revenue is halved. Another point is that cara movement by ground is slow (unless you have rivers or you build a road system which may be slow).
If you find a near island you can place the Trade city here, also you can build a city that is very large...but it is clear the strategy with heavy trading cannot be used on any map and with any ruleset.

	03-12-2004 01:35									#37
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Apolyton Tournament, 12/2004
Medium Map, Russians

I finished my game with a 520 AD conquest. The game events did not go well. The first huts provided 2 techs and 25g, delaying Monarchy until 1650 and Map Making until 1300. This was also the most barbarian infested game I played for a long time. I really hate it when they sink loaded triremes.

I built 2 wonders, MPE and Hanging Gardens. The conquest itself was going nicely and the timing was better than in the last game. Only the English held on a bit longer and were the last original civ in 420. I had only 3 respawns in this game and I thought I was well prepared with cities and units all over the map, but they came late and appeared on continent 1 which I had not discovered before.

I have done a partial replay, that was going much nicer (first huts: settler, 50g, horse). In 650 BC I am about 15 turns ahead of my tournament game using the same strategy. Quite a difference.

BC
3950 Moscow
3900 St. Petersburg
Alphabet
Code of Laws
hut Horseback Riding
Mongols peace
hut 25g
hut Writing
Bronce Working
Kiev, Minsk
2300 CB, Barb attack, unit/pop point lost, no barb leader
1750 Monarchy
1650 Monarchy established,
1500 Smolensk (5th)
1300 Map Making
1100 Barbarians defeated near Kiev
1050 Odessa (6th)
1000 Currency
950 Sevastopol (7th)
900 hut: Tblisi (8th)
850 Barb archer defeated, hut archer,
825 Trade, Mongols 100g
800 Sverdlovsk (9th)
775 Hut chariot
750 Yakutsk (10th)
700 MPE, English: trade for Pottery, maps; Babylonians: trade for Mystizism, maps; Vikings, maps; Spanish, maps; Mongols, maps 100g, Persians, trade for Polytheism, maps
650 Mongols 50g
625 Hut Seafaring
550 Mongols 50g
475 Barb trireme appears and destroys trireme with 2 elephants on their way to the Vikings, this is not my game, hut 50g
450 Hanging Gardens
375 Barbarians defeated near Vladivostok
325 Hut barbarian horde, Mongols 50g
300 Chariot lost to Barbarians
275 Trondheim captured (12th), barb archer destroyed
200 Mongols 50g
175 Babylonians, trade for Construction, maps; Spanish, trade for Literacy; Mongols, give techs, maps
150 Spanish, peace, 100g
125 Philosophy, Monotheism
100 Uppsala destroyed, Vikings truce 250g
50 Kaupang captured (13th),
25 Barbarians defeated near Kiev
AD
1 Hut legion, English 75g, Babylonians, peace, 200g, Masonry, Mongols 50g
20 Barcelona destroyed, Babylon captured (14th)
40 Hut crusader
60 Hut nomads
80 Hladir destroyed, Vikings destroyed, no respawn
100 Ur bribed,
120 Sneak attack by Mongols, settler lost
140 Trireme destroyed by barbarians,
160 Cordoba captured, Valencia destroyed, Persepolis (Colossus) captured
180 Samarkand destroyed, barbarians near Trondheim
200 Pasargade captured
220 Karakorum captured, barbarians defeated near Cordoba, Canterbury destroyed, with the help of a trireme I finally got my first English city, but this stupid archer is still sitting in a fortress on a mountain blocking my advance
240 Susa captured, 2nd barbarian attack near Cordoba, must have been waiting for me
260 Bokhara destroyed, truce, maps, the last city is on an island, Persians, maps, Nottingham captured
280 Seville captured, Novgorod,
300 Madrid (Great Library) captured
320 Tarsus destroyed, Krasnoyarsk, London (Lighthouse) captured,
340 Riga, Salamanca captured, Spanish destroyed, Aztec respawn on continent 1, about the farthest position from the next unit, Arbela destroyed, Persians destroyed, no respawn
360 Rostov, hut: 50g, Nishapur bribed, Mongols destroyed, no respawn, York (Pyramids) captured, Arbela destroyed, Persians destroyed, no respawn, Niniveh bribed, Babylonians destroyed, no respawn
420 Hastings captured, English destroyed, Greek respawn, give techs + 100g, maps, on continent 1 again, Astrakhan, a harbour close to continent 1, Kharkov
440 Grozny
480 Tenochtitlan destroyed, Aztecs destroyed, Egyptian respawn, hut University
500 Egyptians destroyed, no respawn
520 Greek settler bribed, Greeks destroyed, Dnepropetrovsk, Maikop, hut 25g, hut barbarians, hut crusader, no respawn, end of game

Zenon

The final sav is attached

Attachment: le_a0520.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	03-12-2004 12:10									#38
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quote: I really hate it when they sink loaded triremes.

Amen, brother! ( "Ja! Mein Gott!") They got two of my loaded triremes in this game, too. Maybe ST's ship chains are the safest way to travel.

Monarchy was also slow for me, but it was my fault - I traded the Mongols for bronze working and then asked for tribute, getting warrior code.

Well it looks likes a nice game. You really had the map covered well at the end. And it looks like solo is persuading us to play a leaner game.

@Monk/RJM There is still a Civ2.42 link from Apolyton to Amazon. You can get a used disk for 26 cents ! (plus shipping)

	03-12-2004 20:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster @Monk/RJM There is still a Civ2.42 link from Apolyton to Amazon. You can get a used disk for 26 cents ! (plus shipping)

Glad you found a source for a disk. The links I referred to were for folk selling new, original packaged games and were nearer the top of the page. It is good you will have a disk, but will you have a spiffy new tech tree or, drumroll, a game manual??

Be sure you get the patch for your disk, if needed. Classic Civ2 w/ 2.42 patch is pretty much the same except for a kinder, gentler AI.

Monk

	16-12-2004 11:04									#40
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I splurged for a $1.35 disk. I don't remember if it was new. There is no manual, just a wrinkly little installation guide (which was no help at all, but I found a way...). I don't see a version number anywhere - how do I know if I need a 2.42 patch?

Anyway, I would be happy to start a January tournament. Are there any suggestions? I started a succession game, but there are only two active players so far.... I hope this is just because of the busy holiday season.

BTW - Still waiting to hear from La Fayette, Grigor, jwray, rjm, monk ... (sorry if I forgot someone).. in this tournament. Of course, ST is a pretty tough act to follow!

Last edited by Peaster on 16-12-2004 at 11:14

	16-12-2004 11:20									#41
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I down loaded the save some time ago, but I don't remember starting to play it. I have been a bit busy with other things recently. I might get some time over the holiday (different holiday from the one in the title), but don't hold you breath.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS The version you are running is shown on the game options screen. My recollection is that you will have to patch to 2.42 since this version didn't ship on a disk.

	19-12-2004 05:03									#42
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I failed even to finish before 1000BC... I played quickly and had a lot of fun but never developed much of a plan.

Peaster's SC guide nailed me on neglecting to send out triremes last time, so I did that early, but was too optimistic about the number of triremes needed for this map. I see that I did not develop the home continent as densely as any of the quick finishers, which means the home continent never was much for production. I stopped science after Polytheism, and never even got to Mono. This was a problem after taking the AI civs, because I needed MC for all the cities and couldn't build it.

I have a log if there is interest.

Looking forward to fewer distractions next game!

Attachment: gf_a1040.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	20-12-2004 03:35									#43
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@grigor: It is hard to guess how your game developed from just one save, but IMHO you have:

many - temples, defensive units, settlers.
few - Ellies, barracks

I doubt you needed Mike's, Oracle, temples or mono. But maybe you needed HG, and either ST or some barracks. Vet ellies are better than non-vet crusaders, and making them should be one of your top priorities after about 400BC. I can't say much about your triremes or production from just this save. Your casualties are a little high (like mine ).

------------------------------

@ST (or anybody who understands trade): Does your strategy depend on Hides? I am wondering if the whole ship-chain idea would pay off with only non-repeatable commodities. Also, whether you can always depend on having several cities that supply Hides.

I am an idiot regarding trade, but I think you have only two homeland cities (Moscow hi, and Tbilisi) on Hide wildcard squares. The ELG says Hides are likely near tundra/glaciers/rivers, which the Russians have lots of. So, maybe a steady Hide supply was predictable in this game - is it likely in most games?

Also, if a city has a hides wildcard, that does not guarantee it will supply hides ? I have such a city in a PBEM/scenario game, and it does not supply or demand hides. Don't quite understand.

	20-12-2004 07:05									#44
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Peaster - thanks for the comments. Here is my log

Initial analysis: No Techs. Deity. We are on a river system. How long is it? we need a coastal city. The terrain doesn't look very good. I am tempted to found on the rivered forest, size 1 settler, build 3 defenders, and then build a wonder.
The alternative is to found more traditionally. Is there any work which can be done around the city to help? Roading Furs. Or perhaps some city locations are findable.

4000BC Explore on the river. Moscow founded on Rivered Forest.
3900*Roading Furs.
3850 Warrior=>Settlers
3750 Roading Forest
3700* Whale found to the North
3600 Alph=>CB.
3400 Size 1 Settler
3300* roading to the north (oops...)
3150 St Petersburg founded
3000 CB=>BW. Kiev founded in North
2950 Mongols: Peace, trade for BW.
2850 Hut: Archers (Kiev)
2800 Mongols attack. Karakorum found
2700* Moscow starts Colossus, as planned
2650 Archer=>vet
2500* CoL=>Currency - Monarchy not offered???
2350 Hut: Nomads
2100* Minsk founded
2050 Curr=>Mon (91)
1950 Mongols: 50g for cf.
1650 Mon=>Trade. Instant revolt. Gov: Mon
1600 Smolensk founded in 4-special spot.
1250 Trade=>HB.
900 Mongols: War
850* Moscow builds MPE.

Babs: Despo, 166g, 1C. Mas, Myst, Constr, Pots res Alph
Vikes: Despo, 240g, 3C. Maps, HB, Mas, Wheel. Res Math
Spanish: Despo, 187g, 3C. Maps, HB res Wheel
Persians: Despo, 465g, 3C. Maps, Pots, Writing. Res Seaf.
Engl: Despo, 245g, 4C. HB, IW, Myst, Pots. Res Wheel.
Mongols: Despo, 32g, 1C. HB Res IW

Vikes: trade CB, Mon, WC for Wheel, HB, Maps. Peace, Maps.
Persians: get Pots, Writing. Peace, Maps
Spanish: peace, maps.
825 Res Poly.

675 Minsk Gems to Karakorum (d, 54). Karakorum conquered.

LH soon - Time to build Triremes and and vet Elephants. Still no maps from English and Babs. Better do it now!.
Babs: peace, Myst, Maps.
English: peace, Maps

575 Poly=>Seaf
525 LH built. Samarkand destroyed, Mongols destroyed. Indians respawn.
7 Cities +1 Settler. Need flotillas for Persians and Spanish; should I conquer the English on the way to spanish? No, and get the French afterward from either place. A Third detail goes to England.
[this was a blunder - the central position of the English mandated early attention]

350* First Trireme sails for Persia. Second sails for Spain. Hut: Barbs.
325 Barbs kill an ellie.
275 Hut: Barbs again. Ellie escapes.
150* Triremes remanned.
100 Hut: Nomads
75 Indians found. War. Bombay captured (Bridges)
50* Persains: War. Fight a guerilla war.
80 Pasargadae builds HG for us
180 Arbela captured.
200*Pasagardae captured (HG). Persians: 200g for peace.
260 Barb leader (150g)
280* Persians: War. Persepolis captured
320 English: War
380 Persians destroyed, no respawn
420 Delhi captured. Indians destroyed. No respawn.
440* London Captured (Pyr)
500 Nottingham captured (GL).
540 Vikes: War
560 Trondheim captured.
580 Toledo Captured. Hastings captured. English: peace, give gold, maps.
640 Canterbury, Warwick capturd
700 Madrid captured
720 Spanish: 400g for CF. Vikes: War.
760*York captured.
800 English: 300 for CF. We accept in order to violate it.
820 Kaupang captured. Vikes down to Hladir. 3 Dips sabotage city Walls in Coventry. Coventry captured. English down to 1 city too.
840 Maps from Vikings...
860 Salamanca captured, Spanish destroyed. Egyptians found.
880 English destroyed, no respawn.
920 Vikings destroyed, no respawn.
940 Babs: War
960 Still positioning for Babylon. need to knock out walls in Babylon, or else 8 vet Ellies. Hut: NONE Legion
980 caravans for Sun Tzu - but better to wait for MC.
1020 Find Thebes. Egypt: War. Babylon Captured. No Respawn
1040 Egyptians destroyed, no respawn. I win.

	20-12-2004 08:01									#45
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Nice game, Grigor. I like your timing and choice of wonders, and the early Spain/Persia flots. Your growth was on track until around 2000BC, but I'd want at least 10-12 cities by 500BC. My feeling is - make lots of settlers before 500BC, but almost none after that. Solo and zenon do well with small civs, though.

Why did Engand take so long? You conquered London (the capitol ?) in 440AD, but the other English cities held out until 880AD. You could probably have rushed a few dips and bribed those cities quickly and cheaply.

	20-12-2004 09:13									#46
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Thanks for looking.

Well, as I recall, I was initially distracted from settler building by caravans for wonders, elephants, and triremes. I built settlers sparingly if at all after I started conquering. I see that I was not dense enough in my home territiry, which slowed expansion, and also slowed wonder production. I think I switch to caravans too soon. Next game I will ICS till 12 cities and see if that doesn't build up a better civ faster. I don't think I will ever get to Slow Thinker levels - I think too fast...

On the other hand, Solo is always good at making sure he prioritizes exploring early and expanding from there, which always leads to good results in civII. Perhaps my seemingly good starts are more illusory than real.

	01-01-2005 21:07									#47
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Well, time's up. We have results posted from 5 players. By making the most out of the lack of rule restrictions, we must congratulate Slow Thinker for almost pulling off a BC result! It looks like the rest of us will have to study his brilliant and devious methods if we are to beat him in the next game. A superb effort and game. Here is a list of results for this tournament:

1. Slow Thinker - 1 AD
2. A tie again, bewteen:
Peaster - 460 AD
solo - 460 AD
3. Zenon - 520 AD
4. Grigor - 1040 AD

Happy Holidays to all! I would look forward to participating in a new tournament if someone would like to start a thread and post a new start.

	01-01-2005 21:57									#48
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Congratulations to all the finishers!

I am willing to post a save and/or play again. Does anyone have any requests regarding the rules or starting position?

@solo - until then... the 2.42 team could use some help in the Caesar sxn game, if you are interested.

	01-01-2005 22:48									#49
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I won't play - so if you want something special I can prepare a game/map.

	03-01-2005 20:45									#50
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ST - Yes, please... whatever map/rules you think would be fun. There is no hurry, since a CFC GOTM just started yesterday.

	24-01-2005 05:45									#51
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Bump.... Is there no interest in another tournament at this time? Or is everybody waiting for someone else to start something?

	24-01-2005 05:52									#52
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Ah, sorry for the delay... I will create something unusual. This week - is it sufficient?

	24-01-2005 06:10									#53
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ST - Sure. No hurry. I will play, and hope for a big turnout of other player(s).

	02-02-2005 03:56									#54
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I started to prepare it....

	02-02-2005 07:09									#55
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Uh-oh!!

	02-02-2005 07:23									#56
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Eee-h?
( it looks not only debeest will teach me new english words )

	02-02-2005 08:33									#57
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"Uh Oh!" means Grigor is worried about what you are planning or for us. It's a mild version of "Arrrrgh!"