27-11-2004 23:59									#91
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I think you are right, AS.

	28-11-2004 07:36									#92
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod I think you are right, AS.

Now that's a sign that something's seriously wrong

	28-11-2004 08:13									#93
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Nothingness is a confusing concept.

Hence Parmenides:

quote: THE WAY OF TRUTH Fragment 2. Come now, I shall tell you, heed my story, hearing, Which paths of inquiry there are alone for thinking; The one: that that it is and that it cannot not be, Is the path of persuasion (for it follows truth); The other: that it is not and must not be, I indicate to you to be a path utterly unlearnable; For you may neither know what is not (for that is impossible) Nor could you point [it] out. Fragment 3. … for the same thing exists for thinking and for being. Fragment 4. Nevertheless, behold that which is far off, yet firmly present to Mind; for you cannot cut off being from cleaving to being [Because it is] neither dispersing itself completely in order, Nor uniting itself. Fragment 5. It’s all the same to me Whence I begin, for thither I shall return once more. Fragment 6. That which is for speaking and thinking must be; for it is possible to be, But nothing is not; I order you to consider these things. For I restrain you from that first route of inquiry, Yet since from that, which mortals knowing nothing Wander two headed; for helplessness in their Breasts guides wandering mind; and they are borne along nevertheless, Dumb and blind, amazed, uncritical tribes, By whom being and not being have been thought the same And not the same; and the path of all is backward turning Fragment 7. For never shall this prevail – that what is not is; but restrain thought from this path of inquiry and let not habit force you down this road of much experience, to wield unseeing eye and ringing ear and tongue, but judge with reason the much contested refutation spoken by me.

Edited because dumbass tags aren't compatible with standard text markers.

	28-11-2004 10:14									#94
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that's fascinating though how greek logic stunted their mysticism and prevented them from coming up with theories about the vacuum (they preferred that there be something, the ether or the pneuma) and that the west only pondered the vacuum because of inquisitive scientists many of whom were attempting to prove the existance of the ether but found only the vacuum (Michelson finally proving it in the late 19th century when he was trying to find the ether)

	28-11-2004 13:09									#95
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quote: Now that's a sign that something's seriously wrong

No, it just means that since we both agree on it, it must be right.

	28-11-2004 14:23									#96
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quote: that's fascinating though how greek logic stunted their mysticism and prevented them from coming up with theories about the vacuum (they preferred that there be something, the ether or the pneuma) and that the west only pondered the vacuum because of inquisitive scientists many of whom were attempting to prove the existance of the ether but found only the vacuum (Michelson finally proving it in the late 19th century when he was trying to find the ether)

You mean the void?

	28-11-2004 14:27									#97
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quote: that's fascinating though how greek logic stunted their mysticism

I can't fathom this statement.

The influence of Parmenides idea of The One is the ancestor of the neoplatonic One, union with which is the ultimate object of the mystic (homoiosis theoi = assimilation to god).

Parmenides argument against plurality and for the notion that ordinary opinion and the physical world is an illusion is the basis of most western mysticism.

	28-11-2004 14:38									#98
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quote: Nothingess is a state of non-being, that which is not created. it is akin to hindu and buddhist concepts of nirvana. Meditation is related to zero because meditation was used to achieve a state of non-being (through inaction and seperation from the world)... a state of nothingness... a state of zero... and as the double-meanings of zero indicate, it was a state associated with the divine.

One good result of western philosophy is to expose such statements as these as misuses of language.

I'd go so far as to say that the hunger for eastern religions is wholly motivated by a desire for the exotic, rather than any merits they might have.

Eastern mysticism and religious thought has always seemed rather crude and dull to me.

We in the west have our own tradition, people like Julian of Norwich and Thomas Traherne and countless others. I don't see why we should go off and annoy the Indians and Chinese by letting people like Madonna talk crap about their stuff.

	29-11-2004 07:22									#99
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quote: Eastern mysticism and religious thought has always seemed rather crude and dull to me. We in the west have our own tradition, people like Julian of Norwich and Thomas Traherne and countless others. I don't see why we should go off and annoy the Indians and Chinese by letting people like Madonna talk crap about their stuff.

I have to disagree with you on that one, comrade. I thought that Hinduism was some backwards, paganistic, institutionalized religion that was even worse than Christianity in regards of dogmatic beliefs. But that is because I only knew of the institution and the beliefs of commoners. I read a lot about Hindu philosophy and I like a lot of its ideas better than any religion on the planet.

I'd suggest reading the chapter on Hindus in World Religions by Huston Smith. He does a good job of describing their philosophies.

	29-11-2004 09:17									#100
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Agathon: Can you recommend a good book on late Classical Neo-platonism? The more I read about Christianity (especially Gnostics) and Islam (especially Shi'ites and Sufis) they more I hear about the influence that Neo-platonism had on them, without me having more than basic outline of what Neo-platonic philosophy consists of.

quote: Eastern mysticism and religious thought has always seemed rather crude and dull to me.

Have you read the Chuangtze? Its by far the most interesting bit of eastern philosophy that I've come across, its a more intelligent and developed form of the Tao Tse Tung's philosophy with an linguistic bent.

Also the Moh-tze is worth looking at, not being it is appealing in any way, but because its so damn strange.

	29-11-2004 09:26									#101
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Not really, there aren't many good ones. It's a growth area in ancient philosophy. I've done a bit of work on Plotinus, but I'm hardly an expert.

For a nice reader the best is going to be Neoplatonic Philosophy: Introductory Readings by John Dillon and Lloyd Gerson. It's quite new and I can vouch personally for the quality of the scholarship (these are two of the leading experts on Plotinus).

The best introduction to Plotinus is still Gerson's Plotinus. Either that or the Cambridge Companion to Plotinus.

Dominc O'Meara's introduction to the Enneads is pretty good. It would be an easier read than any of the others.

But go with the Dillon/Gerson. It is on Amazon for about 19 bucks and contains extensive notes.

	29-11-2004 09:32									#102
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Thanks Agathon, will do.

	29-11-2004 09:50									#103
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You're most welcome. It's not often someone is interested in the weird stuff I like.

I declare you an eternal ally in the struggle against the physicalists!!

	29-11-2004 13:47									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You're most welcome. It's not often someone is interested in the weird stuff I like. I declare you an eternal ally in the struggle against the physicalists!!

Well a lot of us history geeks aren't military buffs, we need something to keep us busy

	29-11-2004 14:22									#105
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quote: Well a lot of us history geeks aren't military buffs, we need something to keep us busy

So you've chosen neoplatonism...

By any chance do you like being tied up and whipped by dominant women?

	29-11-2004 15:11									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Eastern mysticism and religious thought has always seemed rather crude and dull to me.

You have seen nothing yet. Chungtze is good, and so is the other "canonical" Daoist book, Lit Tze. Of course, much of the crudeness probably comes from poor translation. The Chinese in it to modern Chinese is like Old English to modern English.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't see why we should go off and annoy the Indians and Chinese by letting people like Madonna talk crap about their stuff.

	29-11-2004 15:36									#107
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quote: You have seen nothing yet. Chungtze is good, and so is the other "canonical" Daoist book, Lit Tze. Of course, much of the crudeness probably comes from poor translation. The Chinese in it to modern Chinese is like Old English to modern English.

I should get my brother on here. He reads Classical Chinese and has read all that stuff.

He likes newer stuff too. He is the only guy I know who walks around with a Chinese language copy of the entire Tales of Monkey in his bag.

Monkey.

	29-11-2004 16:10									#108
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Not to be "crude," but didn't Western religion have something more than just sacrifices to the gods? Didn't they have a concept of heaven and hell, and that one had to live a good life to get into heaven as opposed to hell?

	29-11-2004 16:27									#109
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quote: So you've chosen neoplatonism... By any chance do you like being tied up and whipped by dominant women?

Well I took a class on Sufis in college, I read a book on the history of the Druze for fun and I just bought a big compilation of Gnostic primary texts for fun (I need someone to keep me busy on the airplane when I fly back and forth from New York to Korea) and all of them keep on talking about the massive influence Neo-platonism had on them. But yeah, I'm a big geek and I don't care at all for the more technical stuff that lots of history buffs (WWII ones) especially obsess about.

quote: You have seen nothing yet. Chungtze is good, and so is the other "canonical" Daoist book, Lit Tze. Of course, much of the crudeness probably comes from poor translation. The Chinese in it to modern Chinese is like Old English to modern English.

The Chuang-tzu is great, a lot of its parable are crystal-clear and very well reasoned, although I'm sure the more linguistic bits lose a lot in translation, especially if you haven't done a lot of research into the later Mohists and the School of Names, that the Chuang-tzu is trying to rebut.

The Lao-tzu is fun and interesting an well worth reading and rereading, but definately a light-weight compared to the Chuang-tzu.

quote: Not to be "crude," but didn't Western religion have something more than just sacrifices to the gods? Didn't they have a concept of heaven and hell, and that one had to live a good life to get into heaven as opposed to hell?

Definately, the whole idea of salvation was what all the Mystery Cults were about. Christianity was culturally kind of the KMart of the mystery cults, it did the same sort of thing is just was a lot cheaper and less exclusive (and not the sort of place you'd like your neighbors to see you shopping necessarily).

	29-11-2004 20:34									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko The Lao-tzu is fun and interesting an well worth reading and rereading, but definately a light-weight compared to the Chuang-tzu.

Have you read the third canonical book Lit-tzu (or however you write that name in English)?

quote: Originally posted by Boshko Christianity was culturally kind of the KMart of the mystery cults, it did the same sort of thing is just was a lot cheaper and less exclusive (and not the sort of place you'd like your neighbors to see you shopping necessarily).

It seems that Christianity started life as a doomsday cult, complete with things such as:

1. End of the world
2. Cult leader is (was) somehow related to a god (e.g. David Koresh claimed to be the brother of Jesus)
3. Followers are (were) isolated from society

etc.

	29-11-2004 20:36									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I should get my brother on here. He reads Classical Chinese and has read all that stuff. He likes newer stuff too. He is the only guy I know who walks around with a Chinese language copy of the entire Tales of Monkey in his bag. Monkey.

You've got a cool brother

Tales of the Monkey (Journey to the West) is indeed one of the Chinese classics, it used language rather close to modern Chinese.

	29-11-2004 20:42									#112
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Because the West did not have massive systems of slavery and oppression until a fair bit later than the East. Religion is just a naturally evolving chain that locks down the human spirit into willing drudgery.

Slavery was abolished by several states during the Warring States period and was completely abolished by the Qin dynasty. Yet no religion was developed during the Warring States period or the Spring-Autumn period. The ten major schools of thought were mostly philosophical, though some weird ones existed.

	29-11-2004 20:48									#113
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod And as for Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, none of these were polytheistic, and they were way more advanced than any western religion of the time.

Neither Daoism nor Confucianism are religious, both started as major schools of thought during the Spring-Autumn period (a prolonged period of civil war amongst the fedual lords following the Chou dynasty), the other one being the School of Law.

Confucianism can be considered as reactionary, as Confucius attempted to bring back the sort of system (a mix of fedualism and slavery) that had existed during the Chou dynasty, while the School of Law can be considered as progressive.

	29-11-2004 21:00									#114
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In reply to the opening post.
Why would one world view that is obviously wrong be more "forward" than another world view that is obviously wrong?

	29-11-2004 22:41									#115
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UR: Never heard of Lit Tzu, thought it was a typo and meant at Lao-tzu. How does it compare to the Lao-tzu and the Chuang-tzu?

you might also find this interesting: http://sangle.web.wesleyan.edu/etext/index.html (my old philosophy prof's page, really good teacher)

	30-11-2004 07:20									#116
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quote: 1. End of the world 2. Cult leader is (was) somehow related to a god (e.g. David Koresh claimed to be the brother of Jesus) 3. Followers are (were) isolated from society

1. Yet, Christianity teaches that much will happen before this day will occur.

2. And the leader proved his claim.

3. How so? Christians are supposed to be in the world, not of it.

	30-11-2004 07:21									#117
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quote: (and not the sort of place you'd like your neighbors to see you shopping necessarily).

Most are quite open, if you ask them.

	30-11-2004 07:26									#118
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It has probably been said here already, but ancient Greeks (and Romans too for that matter), notably the scholars after a while believed that the gods were just part of a bigger God, something impossible to describe. Everything in the world is part of that God.
This was because the scholars found out that most mechanisms could be explained by using their reason. So basically all the gods that provided the world with wind, heat or whatever were kind of obsolete. So they sought another explanation which was that Universal God.

It's interesting to see that Marcus Aurelius (being a stoicist) often refers to God in his writings instead of the traditional gods (though he did refer to Zeus too, so it's a bit ambiguous), and he was not a Christian...

	30-11-2004 08:45									#119
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quote: Tales of the Monkey (Journey to the West) is indeed one of the Chinese classics

And then the Japanese improved upon it and made Dragonball.

	30-11-2004 09:28									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Most are quite open, if you ask them.

I was talking about how in late Roman society Christianity was basically a poor-man's mystery cult. I wasn't implying that this was a bad thing or that this was the case today.