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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
How does all of this preclude the influence of Protestantism on the British isles?
So the banking business was hardly an influence in creating the preconditions for capitalism - insofar that the money was not lent to capitalists. |
It doesn't, but you included Cromwell as part of the Protestant Reformation which is historically inaccurate, unless you have an elastic version of the English Reformation which no one else has heard of.
Not all loans from Italian (and Flemish and German) banking houses were used as war loans- the Spanish monarchy, by the way, is best known for repudiating its debts in that respect, but the collapse of the Bardi and Peruzzi banking houses in the 1340s followed loans to both Edward III of England and the King of Naples, and was part of a more general economic malaise. In any case the social changes engendered by the Black Death in 1347 also fueled the changes necessary for the growth of capitalism in northern Italy.
Capitalism was alive and well and living in northern Italy of the Renaissance- Venice for instance (the most notable example) could afford its imperial and mercantile adventures in the Aegean, Adriatic, Greece and Cyprus because of the enormous wealth amassed by trade, manufacturing, loans with interest, insurance, credit facilities and taxation. It's notable also too, for the first 'modern' bank in Europe- created in the12th Century.
Venice combined aspects of republican rule, monarchical/aristocratic rule and a mercantile oligarchy. It tolerated the ghetto because despite the prevailing prejudices elsewhere in Catholic Europe, it understood that money lending was important to its survival against states with larger territories and bigger populations.
There was no class based hauteur/froideur which prevented what passed for the Venetian nobility from making money, as they frequently traded from their own homes- not something which one can imagine a Spanish grandee or hidalgo engaging in.
The Venetian merchants understood the value of insurance, of shares, of loans with interest attached- this despite the fact that such loans were explicitly against the teachings of the Catholic Church, having been condemned by a pope in the 13th Century.
http://accfinweb.account.strath.ac.uk/df/a1.html
Moneys accrued from trade were reinvested- in agriculture, industry and manufacturing- and it's worthwhile noting that the collapse of the Bardi and Peruzzi banks paved the way for the splendours of Renaissance Florence during the rule of the Medicis- a time when the coinage of a relatively small city state in northern Italy could become the monetary standard for much of Europe, until it was superseded by Venice's ducat.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
I don't know about that. In fact is has been showed that taxation in the middle ages actually raised food productivity. The farmers had to give one tenth of their produce to the Church who then in turn handed it out to the poor.
With the expropriation of Church lands, and the collectivization of individual farms into grazing grounds for sheep - many farmers were left destitute. |
I thought that the seizure of the common lands by the aristocracy occurred in the 18th century, long after the Reformation. quote:
Those who did not starve to death were forced into crime to survive.
For instance during the reign of Henry the 8th 78.000 people were beheaded. |
Who came up with this figure, and was this before or after the establishment of the C of E? Henry VIII did a lot of "cleaning up" in the aftermath of the War of the Roses. Also this pales in comparison to the activities that occurred during the suppression of the Cathars in France in the 13th century and the efforts of the Spanish to rid their country of non-believers in the 14th and 15th centuries quote:
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During the reign of Elizabeth 400 were hanged per year.
Records show that In Somersetshire during one year 40 persons were executed, 35 were branded with fire, 37 were whipped.
According to the notar howver only one fifth of criminals were ever charged , due to the people's "foolish compassion." Conditions were not different in other counties. |
Were these executions all for religious reasons or were there criminal offences intermixed? IIRC many areas of continental europe were still using such quaint practices as the rack, the wheel, the iron maiden, and the press up to the age of Napoleon. quote:
Like Marx said the wealth of the nation is inversely propertional to the wealth of the population. |
We all know that's utter garbage now. Undoubtably erroneous preconceptions such as that led to the downfall of Marxism.
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
In any case the social changes engendered by the Black Death in 1347 also fueled the changes necessary for the growth of capitalism in northern Italy.
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Is that the rise of the merchant class?
edit: I read that the lords moved to free their serfs before the Black Death but then tried to reverse this when rents decreased.
Last edited by Kidicious on 27-11-2004 at 22:07
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
We all know that's utter garbage now. Undoubtably erroneous preconceptions such as that led to the downfall of Marxism. |
Not really erroneous. He was simply using the same critisism of mercantilism that Adam Smith used.
edit: Those with power will always find a way to exploit the masses to create wealth. You will notice that the movement to free trade came at a time when there was a large labor supply to be exploited by industrialization. That's what Marx meant, and even Adam Smith stated that free trade would not benefit the worker.
Last edited by Kidicious on 27-11-2004 at 22:26
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Is that the rise of the merchant class?
edit: I read that the lords moved to free their serfs before the Black Death but then tried to reverse this when rents decreased. |
That's certainly a part of the equation, but feudalism certainly broke down in more urbanized (previously heavily populated) northern Italy- however there was already a substantial merchant 'class' in the cities of Tuscany, who were able to exploit Italy's geographic position as a place from which to ship luxury goods and spices through the Alpine passes on to the cities and trade fairs of Central and Northern Europe.
Yes, there were failures of banking houses in Florence- the Accaiuoli, the Bardi, the Peruzzi, and this was associated partly with the actions of Edward III in his wars with France, but when haven't there been banking collapses? It hardly invalidates my position that northern Italy in the Renaissance gave birth not only to the tools of modern capitalism, but also to the practice.
In Venice, and in Florence, the banking houses that came after the early Renaissance banking collapse diversified, and thus the collapse of one branch would not necessitate the collpase of all. The Medici's financial interests (apart from being 'God's bankers'- they not only saw the election of their candidate as Pope, they also provided overdraft facilities) stretched from Mameluke Egypt to London and Antwerp.
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27-11-2004 01:55
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), and Luther's "back to the bible" had a progressive element given the condition in which the church as institution existed at Luther's times. Calling it reactionary then may be technically correct but still is somewhat irritating when you understand "reactionary" as something directed against progress. 
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