01-12-2004 22:53									#31
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quote: Mounted Warriors do have one thing going for them that has not been mentioned yet: blocking tricks. A 2-move unit is much better at making the AI dance around (critical on Sid) than slowmovers. But this has nothing to do with mixed-unit forces.

True, Dom, but it's no better at that than the regular unit it replaces. It may just be me, but if I'm playing Persia, I'm going to have a horseman force to augment my Immortals that can handle that aspect. That brings up one other advantage of the MW, though.

I have X number of cities with enough production to build swordsmen/horsemen (Immortals/MW). With Persia, some of those cities are going to be dedicated to building horsemen, leaving me, say, 80% of X to produce Immortals. With the Iroquois, I'm probably not building any swordsmen, leaving me 100% of X to produce MW. I've got the three attack, and in a better package with the two movement, and if I need the two defense, chances are I've already built a spearman or two. On the other hand, there are some functions, like tagging strays, blocking settlers and chasing barbs, that four attack is far less useful for than two movement.

For the record, my favorite UU's (that I've played):

1. Berserk - easy choice for an amphibious assault addict.
2. Mounted Warrior - three attack and two movement.
3. Javelin Thrower - nice early offense and defense and captured workers can be a huge boost early on.
4. Panzer - comes after the game is decided, but lots of fun.
5. Gallic Swordsman - expensive, but a tough early three attack, two movement unit.

	23-12-2004 00:04									#32
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There is a distinction between effective UUS and fun UUs. The most enjoyable to play are generally those that give you a new capability (or at least a capability in one era you wouldn't otherwise have until a later era.)

List of 'different' UUs (i.e. those that don't just have better A/D/M stats):

Dromon - bombard two eras early, and dominate the sea! Fun and effective. My favourite by a long shot.

Berserk - amphibious attack two eras early. Fun and moderately effective. Easy second place.

Conquistador - the only attacking ATOR unit. Fun. Not particularly effective unless you've got an army to spare, in which case 8/turn pillaging can reduce a civilised enemy to vestiges of stripped and burnt fields in a few short turns... They get my third vote just because of ConqArmies.

Carrack (yes, I mixed them up) - cross oceans early. The unit itself is kind of dull, but gives the Portuguese a second boost in continents maps, as they'll be able to hit the other continents first and sell tech and contacts for a while.

Man-O-War - boarding and taking over (which doesn't sound nearly as cool as Piracy! but is probably less inaccurate)! Haven't actually ever played the English, although capturing enemies sounds kind of fun.

Javelin Thrower - make slaves. Overrated in my experience, unless you're Barb-farming (you sly dog, you!)

Hwa'cha - lethal artillery. I'd play the Koreans a lot more if they had range 2, but with range 1, they're really just better cannons.

Last edited by geniemalin on 23-12-2004 at 04:01

	23-12-2004 00:14									#33
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quote: Caravel - cross oceans early. The unit itself is kind of dull, but gives the Portuguese a second boost in continents maps, as they'll be able to hit the other continents first and sell tech and contacts for a while.

erm, the caravel is the ordinary unit. The carrack is the UU. But it is a useful UU if you don't use suicide galleys and you are ahead in tech.

	23-12-2004 00:19									#34
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quote: Man-O-War - piracy! Haven't actually ever played the English, although capturing enemies sounds kind of fun.

Not piracy. That's what you can do with the non-UU Privateer unit. Using MoW's will trigger war with a civ whose unit you attack.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 00:55									#35
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Arrian, MoW's can enslave, so even though war will be declared, you could capture the enemy ships...

	23-12-2004 01:19									#36
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I know, but "piracy" implied - to me - being able to nail ships w/o outright warfare. Something only the Privateer can do.

Perhaps my concept of piracy is different than others.

-Arrian

	23-12-2004 02:11									#37
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"Berserk - amphibious attack two eras early. Fun and moderately effective. Easy second place."

It's only one era early.

	23-12-2004 03:40									#38
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The tech allowing Bersker can be gotten as the second Middle Age tech.

The tech allowing Marines is an optional one off one of the last Industrail Era required techs.

That is close enough to 2 eras in my book.

	23-12-2004 04:05									#39
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What a nit-picking bunch

I'll take the correction on the Carrack; I think of the Marine as essentially Modern rather than Industrial, but technically I stand corrected there too. Piracy! in the sense of 'boarding, capturing or killing the crew and taking it over' I thought was a fair use of the term, but if piracy implies non-nation-aligned ships I'll abandon that too.

However, despite all of that, my point about fun units / abilities vs higher scores, stands.

Unless someone wants to nitpick that too...?

	23-12-2004 04:57									#40
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The only thing I'll really take issue with is your Jav Thrower comments. It's map and playstyle dependent, so I'm not saying you're flat out wrong, but in my latest game, the enslavement was definitely not overrated. First, there was plenty of open space, so I did have a couple of JTs out not so much barb-farming but barb-gathering. Second, I was able to Jav-rush the Persians and use them to great effect when the Celts sent stacks of archers into my territory.

The bottom line of all that use was a plethora of slave workers early enough to make a difference. Sure, it takes a few turns to get them back to your core, but each pair is one less population point that you have to have out there improving tiles, which means one more pop point in a city contributing gold and shields to your empire. That can be huge when you get a small army of slave labor running around.

So, in any situation ripe for barb spawning or in which an archer rush is feasible, being Mayan is a great boon.

	23-12-2004 05:53									#41
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"The tech allowing Bersker can be gotten as the second Middle Age tech."

You need at least three MA techs to be able to include Invention in your list of techs.

* punkbass2000 Master of Picayune

	23-12-2004 10:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi So, in any situation ripe for barb spawning or in which an archer rush is feasible, being Mayan is a great boon.

Although I've found the increased cost of the JT means they can't be used for rushing in the same way as archers.

Again, this is based on limited experience with the Mayans, but after nearby Barbarians had been cleared JTs were not very useful, only able to pick off the occasional 1- or 2-hp defender or act as expensive spearmen to defend cities and throw out an occasional 'defensive slave'.

Disclaimer: I play on Standard maps at the largest, and I can see that a Huge Pangaea would give them more scope....

	23-12-2004 21:00									#43
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I'll second the meh value of JTs. You have to use them early before the AI gets swords. This means a really early GA. Yay. And they're awfully pricey for your early small cities to build. You'll have 1/3 fewer JTs than you would have archers even though you get the same offensive power as archers.

I've tried the Maya twice and it always seems that my JTs are meeting up with a bunch spears and swords. On hills.

	23-12-2004 21:58									#44
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I only like the JT on deity and sid on an island map. Then I can use them against barbs and not trigger a GA. When the AI shows up, they can get a defensive win in and you probably want the GA then.

If you don't want to trigger it, move them out, so they do not fight. On contients, you probably will have to press them into combat too soon.

	23-12-2004 22:18									#45
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I should acknowledge that lately I've taken an approach of learning to manage a despotic GA, rather than miss out on some of the ancient UUs' full potential, so that wasn't a huge factor for me.

	25-12-2004 01:03									#46
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IMMORTALS

I've pretty much always been a big fan of Immortals... none of the fastmovers, with the potential exception of MWs, give such a relative advantage for as long.

Regarding the fastmover vs. slowmover debate, I would respond with two arguments:

1) I've long practiced what Catt termed for me "slow war"... it provides greater opportunities for MGLs. Now, while not as powerful as GLs in vanilla / PTW, if I'm on a military bent anyway, slamming out Armies, SWs, and high culture buildings doesn't suck.

2) There's nothing wrong with a mixed arms approach in ancient and medieval warfare. I've been reading a lot about the relevant RW period, and it seems to me that the innovation that allowed Alexander such an extended period of victory was exactly that: An offensive phalanx to fix the opponent in place, with 'cavalry' (i.e., horsemen) to take advantage of opportunities presented on the field.

So, in Civ3, first fielding Immortals to take care of your nearest opponents, sending them off to the next furthest and next opponents, while building and then sending Horsemen / Knights to catch up, is pretty much a steam roller.

And I've never much minded the despotic GA... you just have to know how to use it (e.g., mined regular grassland and irrigated plains).

That said... I've been considering something new:

BERSERKS

In place of the Immortals approach delineated above, that is.

Yeah, don't forget them as amphib, where they are just awesome... but considering them as part of a land strategy:

1) Spearmen at home as MPs, and Horsemen for all offensive actions.

2) Upon entering the Medieval Age, slam out, oh, maybe 10 Archers as the nucleus of the Berserk forces (very expensive to upgrade).

3) Get out of despotism into the government of your choice.

4) Get Leo's, if possible. Higher priority than normal.

5) Upgrade to Pikes.

6) Upgrade to Berserks. Build more.

7) Bring your Horses back to act as MPs.

8) Send out the slowmover force... it will be effectively unstoppable. For a very very very long time.

9) Augment the land force with seagoing forces. (again)

9) Upgrade the Horsies to Knights, and you again have a mixed arms approach.... but now, with 6 and 4 attack and 3 and 3 defense.

The big advantage over the Immortals approach is, of course, the Berserk attack...

* Comparable Offense: While Immortals are matched by Med Infs in appr. one age, Berserks are not matched for appr. one-and-a-half ages (leave fastmovers out of this argument).

* Relevant Defense: Immortals are matched 4/2 (200%) and 4/3 (133%) for just over one age, compared to Berserks at 6/2 (300%... you know this is truly representative, at least in SP ), 6/3 (200%), and 6/4 (150%) for just under one age. Also, for Immortals there is the period from Nationalism to Rep Parts where they are at a disadvantage, which is not the case for Berserks, and, of course, Berserks do not have to be upgraded to Guerillas.

Berserk Armies, of course, are just insane, whether in stock or in the AU Mod (especially there, btw... they are loadable onto Galleys!!).

And Berserks are resourceless.

Last edited by Theseus on 25-12-2004 at 01:08

	25-12-2004 02:37									#47
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Good points Theseus.

My two cents:

Immortals

With a bit of luck, you can get the equivalent of a MedInf Army, two techs into the game. This sucks big time... for the whole world that is not Persian (yet) at that moment. This point alone can make one love playing Persia.


Berserks

On Archipelago maps, you can often wipe out a whole civ in a turn. And here's the thing: you can do it long before Cavalry/Modern Armor, and without a ROP-rape. Usually without many losses as well.

Your Berserks must have defenders, when they get off the boats. They die very quickly, if left alone on land.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus * Comparable Offense: While Immortals are matched by Med Infs in appr. one age, Berserks are not matched for appr. one-and-a-half ages (leave fastmovers out of this argument).

Actually, leave the fastmovers in. A Cavalry can move 3 tiles into enemy territory, which gives it 2 tiles, and then attack. If there is water, a Berserk on Caravel can move 5 tiles, and then attack. That's 6 tiles with the Great Lighthouse. How's that for Blitzkreig?

	25-12-2004 06:53									#48
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Yes, an Immortals Army or two, right of the bat, is indomitable in the early game.

If we do not do an AU game with Berserks soon (and I catch up on my DARs/AARs ), I'll be experimenting with Berserks on a pangaea map, hopefully following the overall strategy I've laid out above. I think they are even more, in fact much more, indomitable.

	28-12-2004 02:26									#49
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I used to swear by the Sipahi, but I've got a bit disenchanted by them as time's gone by; they're a bit late, and they're still not able to take out Inf in metros with an acceptable loss ration unless you use Arty to soft the defenses up, in which case you might just as well redline the bunch and take only marginally higher losses with cavalry. Still, they're one of the really good ones.

Riders rock. Period. I also like Ansar Warriors. That lowered defense rarely matters much.

Still, it's probably Immortals, for reasons people have already enummerated. Killers in the ancient age, budget MDIs in the middle ages, and, with Cannon support, fully able to knock down Riflemen.

	29-12-2004 10:59									#50
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Ancient Calvary and Crusaders are probably the best units for their times. No, they aren't special units, but they're pretty dang good.

As for units in general, I would have to say that mobility is the most important part. Having 10 horseman in the ancient ages can sometimes be better than 10 swordsman. They may not have the attack or the defense, but they can retreat, and then reattack. They may give you more loses, but they're cheaper and can be moved to cities quicker.

This is why I would say units like the russian cossacks or chinese riders have huge advantages. Cossacks can attack multiple times, and usually can manage to take out a musketman and damage a second one. Riders can outrun all units, and have the mobility advantages of calvary.

Balanced armies, I think we can all agree, are the best. While wiping out everyone early on can mean for a quicker game, sometimes just playing pacifist till the modern ages can lead to modern wars, which deal with more units and complexities...

	09-01-2005 10:09									#51
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I think which UU is "best" depends upon map type, difficulty level, playing style and the circumstances of the particular game that you are playing. That said, some UU's are very useful in many circumstances (eg. mounted warriors and Persian Immortals as mentioned by others above). Other UU's may not generaally be particularly useful in a broad range of circumstances but may really shine in a particular circumstance.

Take for example the English man of war. This unit can be completely useless or a godsend. On a pangea map with virtually no naval action it may be almost useless, particularly if you have triggered your golden age with wonders (just a fancy boat with a bit more grunt).

On the other hand if you happen to be playing archipelago, are behind on tech, fighting a much larger AI, missing resources and are hard put defending yourself let alone launching invasions then the MOW is worth its' weight in gold. I have had a couple of such games. The AI sends a transport covered by several destroyers/cruisers/battleships. Reduce them all to one hit point by bombarding from shore with artillery and then sink the ships with MOW. Use veterans to attack the escort and use an enslaved regular to sink the transport and hopefully advance to veteran. The losses are quite light given that you get to enslave about one in three of your victories. Meanwhile you have time to accumulate the force to invade some little island to get needed resources because your losses at sea are much lower than your losses on land would be if you could not interfere with these invasions. The MOW does not win the game but it certainly buys time because it is much better than other sailing vessel.

	09-01-2005 11:15									#52
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As I mentioned earlier, I think that Berserks have been unsung heroes...

There is, I think, a tendency to use them later than strictly necessary, as seaborne raiders, and thus a possible wait for Caravels (c'mon, who likes to amphib attack with Galleys )...

As promised, and yes, all of my pending DARs/AARs have to wait: I've started a pangaea game as Scandy, with no amphib attacks allowed.

First off (as Dominae pointed out?), SEA as a trait really rocks even on a pangaea... better than EXP possibly. No hut luck, but on Demi and above, no loss really.

Second, and to my point: As it happens, I ended up with yet another resource chase... no iron, no horses, no saltpeter. Well... WTF CARES!!! I HAVE BERSERKS!!!

I grabbed Knights Templar, just in case, really for the 3 defense, so the stacks I sent out were typically 6 Berserks+1Crusader+1ESpear... unnecessary, truly.

Berserks are, hmmm, unstoppable. SmackSmackSmack, be you Spear/Pike/Musket. Period. End of story. G'night grandma. Hail and farewell. SEE YA!

6a.

6a, that is all I have to say.

	09-01-2005 11:39									#53
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"6a.

6a, that is all I have to say. "

Cryptic.

	10-01-2005 00:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 "6a. 6a, that is all I have to say. "

mus' be one of those neanderthal jarhead things
f4 phantom 20 thousand feet...

timing... it's all in the timing
golden age anytime after invention ...
who? harr ...

so here goes...(it's been nice knowing you people)
i think the berserk is umm... (gulp) sort of, you know, overpowered

sorry but i find 6a, medieaval ga, and amphibious landing too much like candy from a baby

but wait, what's that coming up behind me?
oh no
it's big .. it's mean ... and, o lord .... it's carrying a loaded banana
eiieeieaaaaaaaarrrgggh!

	10-01-2005 00:15									#55
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

First, you take the banana.
Then, you eat the banana, thus, disarming him.
You have know rendered him, helpless.

	10-01-2005 00:31									#56
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Berserks are fine, but I wouldn't call them overpowered. Consider a civ that is on your tech level, and not much smaller than you, and the situation isn't as good anymore. The Berserks are 1) expensive, and 2) short-lived. First, you need to build them, or upgrade Archers, and that will cost you (Leo's helps, but it's bad anyway). You have to build and use them, before the enemy gets good units. Muskets (just one tech after Berserks) are already a slight danger, especially if on Hills. Once the enemy has Riflemen, things get messy (you need artillery support, and who would like to build Frigates...). Also, once you go inland, you need heavy protection, or every fast-mover will PWN you. Same goes for holding any city that you take. Not to mention, that the enemy can simply build ships, and make u-boats out of your ships.

But most of all, the Viking civ traits are just so-so. If you don't get lucky, you can easily get out-REXed, out-produced, out-researched by many other civs. And most of the time, it will happen early, before Berserks even become a dream.

	10-01-2005 01:03									#57
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A warmongling Viking probably doesn't have time to build Leos unless granted a SGL.

I do anticipate they'd build a lot of vetran archers and some galleys to place them in.

I have visions of them directly attacking coastal cities, raizing them to the ground and moving on without trying to hold them until the enemy is seriously weakened.

	10-01-2005 01:17									#58
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Can you afford risking a Dromon coming by, and sinking your precious toys? Can you afford sending expensive units away from home, so they can't come back and help? If you can, you are winning the game anyway, so the Berserk makes little difference. It's not a powerful UU, it's just a (very ) fun way to win the game.

	10-01-2005 01:38									#59
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Have you heard of escorts? A Dromon coming by could happen, but generally a couple Elite Galleys escorting your loaded Veteran Galleys will not be very accessible.

	10-01-2005 02:22									#60
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Punkbass, I realize that there are strategies against strategies against strategies, ... I mean, I could talk about a screen of ships, or a fast-mover counter-attacker force, both of which could cripple a Viking raid. But then you'd respond, that ... ... ... There's no point in doing that. Discussions along these lines don't go well, because everyone is right - in their own imagination. So let's leave it, ok?

There's at most one winner to any battle. What I am saying is, that in general, it's not always going to be the one with the Berserk. I agree it's powerful, but it doesn't create a one-strategy-aways-win situation. I don't think any UU does.