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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's too Euro-centric. If you look at the entire world, Europe was just a backwater spot, until 1800's or so. |
You're about three to four centuries too late, Urb.
Even ignoring the discovery/rediscovery of the Americas by the Vikings and the Spanish, the Scandinavian peninsula was part of a trading network stretching from India to Newfoundland in the times of the Vikings.
The Romans had traded directly with India, indirectly with the states in modern day Viet Nam and in China, and established a trading post near modern day Malindi in East Africa, well before Zheng He briefly stopped there.
The English and Portuguese both established embassies with the Safavid Empire, who had hopes of using either power against the Ottomans, and had enjoyed the hospitality of the Moghul Emperors.
The Dutch had created a series of strategically sited trading posts from Brazil to Indonesia to Formosa to Japan.
The Moghuls and the Ming and the Manchu all wanted Western technology- from automata to clocks to guns.
By the end of the 17th Century, Europe was leading the world in theoretical science and with minor exceptions (porcelain for instance) in the applied sciences.
A backwater? Well maybe if you're a self-satisfied Ming or Manchu 'Son of Heaven' who hasn't kept up on what's happening in the world outside Asia....
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
I wouldn't call Russian history boring. Depressing, though...
-Arrian |
A Pole is granted three wishes by a genie.
Lech says to the genie-
" I would like for the Golden Horde to come and ravage Poland."
The genie looks at him, somewhat puzzled, but grants him his wish.
Accordingly the Golden Horde come, rape, pillage, burn and generally behave in a most unneighbourly fashion.
"And for your second wish?"
Lech ponders, a pensive look appears....
" I would like for the Uighurs to come and ravage Poland."
The genie is taken aback-
" Are you sure, oh master? For the Golden Horde have only just returned to their homelands, after much wanton destruction...."
Lech is unperturbed, and commands the genie to carry out his wishes.
And so much misery, theft, cruel rapine and torture and murder visit the plains of Poland once again.
The nomads depart, and the genie returns to Lech, expecting a request for riches, eternal life, beautiful women, the latest in customized horse drawn vehicles...
But Lech has a strangely familiar request.
" Now genie, for my last wish, I would like for the Mongol hordes to come and wreak havoc on the kingdom of Poland."
The genie is much taken aback; he has never had three such wishes before.
" Are you sure master? You could have mountains of gold, jewels from all the lands of the world, a great kingdom to rule...."
"No, genie, " says Lech, " I know what I want."
And so with an air of weary resignation, the genie carries out Lech's final wish- the fierce, remorseless Mongol horsemen slaughter and rape and subjugate and ravage, Poland is left a smoking depopulated ruin.
Lech's face is animated by a broad grin. The genie is perplexed.
" Before I leave I must know- why did you wish for these nomad hordes to come and destroy your country, killing your family and friends ?"
Lech replies:
" Oh, that's simple- they had to cross Russia twice."
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Why does England lead? Its dynastic issues are no more weird and whacky than say Egypt's, which had 20 + dynasties. Its revolts and civil wars are not unique-in terms of a home of western ideas, France and Italy and Germany all have an equal amount....
I really don't get the anglomania (except this is an english speaking board filled with Britons and their 'offspring', Americans and Aussies...) |
Part Empire, part time period (it was recent), part the quantity of it (most thousand year histories were a long time ago). Yes, other countries had civil wars, revolts, issues of boundaries, famous Kings and statesmen, stories of heroism, etc., but very few have all of that, and even less so in a relatively modern setting.
Sure, Spanish and French had some very interesting history at the same time, but lack the size and impact of the empire, as well as the well documented medieval history. The US's isn't particularly long yet. Italy* only recently got interesting with it's unification in the 19th Century, as did Germany and Russia, though possibly slightly earlier. China* and Japan*'s history has only been particularly interesting relatively recently too. All other interesting histories seem to be ancient, and while still interesting, can seem more distant.
A claim could be made for Rome, China or Japan, due to having a modern and ancient history, but I tend to think the breadth of things to study in English history, makes it more interesting.
* Please not I'm counting ancient Rome and the Chinese and Japanese Dynasties in the ancient part, and those comments refer to modern history only.
Then there's also Hollywood's effect, with sop many films about English legends, like King Arthur and Robin Hood, that seem to glorify that time period. Add to that that yes, evereyone here speaks English, and many as their first language, hence the wealth of text in English for a history matters a lot with knowledge of the subject. Would a history be interesting if nothing had been recorded, to a person now? Doubtfully, which is what many histories are like to an English speaker, as the text is all in that language, or at least, a large proportion of it. Spanish 1400-1700 history may be incredibly interesting, but there is nowhere near as much of it in English as the same period of English history. This is an ethnocentric argument, and thus only explains it in the context of an English message board, but England does have other reasons to claim it as being the most interesting, as mentioned above.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jethro83
But those 'naked brown guys' had their own distinct art, music and culture completely untouched by foreign influence. As an Australian, I've seen plenty of their culture, and I'd have to say it actually is somewhat interesting (and sadly, somewhat misunderstood).
Besides, I don't really see how the Aborigines could possibly be less interesting than the story of how their land was made into a British convict dumping ground. |
then you havent read Hughes "Fatal Shore"
Geez, Starvation years, Irish rebels, Rum Corps, Norfolk Island, emancipists vs exclusives, dead Tasmanian Aborigines, royal commisions reporting on Sodomy, more floggings than you can shake a stick at - I found it fascinating. Of course he adds in a certain amount of Georgian England background, and some pre-first fleet history, and post-abolition history, but the core of the story is still Australia (including Norfolk Island) from 1788 to 1868.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Why does England lead? Its dynastic issues are no more weird and whacky than say Egypt's, which had 20 + dynasties. Its revolts and civil wars are not unique-in terms of a home of western ideas, France and Italy and Germany all have an equal amount....
I really don't get the anglomania (except this is an english speaking board filled with Britons and their 'offspring', Americans and Aussies...) |
Well it helps that you can read so much primary material in English
And I mean can you really tell the XV dynasty of Egypt from the XVI dynasty? I mean just more tombs, more "life, prosperity, health" (or whatever it was) crap, more expeditions agains the Libyans, or the Nubians, or whomever. Whereas the difference between say Charles 1, and Victoria looks pretty dramatic, to 21th century eyes.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Sure, Spanish and French had some very interesting history at the same time, but lack the size and impact of the empire, as well as the well documented medieval history. The US's isn't particularly long yet. Italy* only recently got interesting with it's unification in the 19th Century, as did Germany and Russia, though possibly slightly earlier. China* and Japan*'s history has only been particularly interesting relatively recently too. All other interesting histories seem to be ancient, and while still interesting, can seem more distant. |
The Spanish Empire begun first, and the British Empire only reached the same size that the Spanish Empire had reached by the mid-19th Century (remembering most of Africa's interior was not colonized then and India until 1857 was still under a company and not the Crown. And as for Medieval history, France has craploads of it (much including the English) and so does Spain, having been site of a thriving Islamic state and the site of the longest crusade.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Well it helps that you can read so much primary material in English
And I mean can you really tell the XV dynasty of Egypt from the XVI dynasty? I mean just more tombs, more "life, prosperity, health" (or whatever it was) crap, more expeditions agains the Libyans, or the Nubians, or whomever. Whereas the difference between say Charles 1, and Victoria looks pretty dramatic, to 21th century eyes. |
Once you start getting into the MIddle Kingdom period things heat up some.
Then you get those bastard Ptolemeic (sp) dyansty...
Still think the Levant has had the most interesting one- heck, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed all slept there. No other area of the world can claim that.
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