12-12-2004 05:46									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

that is a great post. but how does it explain them getting women to wear burkhas? Or did they wear burkhas before religion was introduced to them?

And some religions such as islam and christianity do preach that it is a woman's duty to serve their husband. And this has worked for many, many years.

	12-12-2004 05:56									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: but how does it explain them getting women to wear burkhas? Or did they wear burkhas before religion was introduced to them?

That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha.

	12-12-2004 08:45									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I stand by my position that hot dry weather leads to violence.

Global warming

	12-12-2004 08:53									#64
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I still cannot overcome the realization that Islam was spread through warfare though. Yes there has been some peaceful spread into Africa and Asia. But most of it was through warfare.

How can violence not be part of the religion?

	12-12-2004 14:12									#65
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Like I said the violent spread of Islam was predominetly done by Arabs in the middle east, when other groups were doing the spreading (such as in southeast asia) it was done with less violence, To be honest thats my assumption because I know very little about the spread of Islam in South East Asia. I just haven't hear anyone say it was spread by war, this seems typical of Asian/oriental society their is less religiously motivated warfare then in the west.

Smileys Hot dry weather comend though shurly a jest is actualy rather insightfull, but rather then violence it leads to the arab/semidic "hospitality" complex. In a desert environment physical survival is hard and dangerous at all times. People must travel from water sourse to water sourse and are usaly at the limits of their endurace by the time they reach them. For an able person to not welcome and provide comfort to a traveler is paramount to putting the travelers life in danger. Because most of the contacts are traveler-traveler their is a high level of empathy. In response Arab culture has a strong host/guest rules governing the exchange. In places ware climate is less dangerous their is far less travel and the sedentary population is far less friendly to an outsider, the traveler must thus purchace comfort which also helps to establish they are not some kind of bandit.

I belive though I am not 100% shure that the burkas and all other such head/body coverings were present before Mohammed lived and served practical usefull purposes in the desert environment, men wore similar robes as well. The low status of weomen was also a pre-existing Arab value that Islam did nothing to change. Likewise the high status of weomen in western culture has nothing to do with Cristianity and is a very resent development.

	12-12-2004 18:52									#66
	Suffering from ads?

I believe the Muslim rulers of India sent ships to Indonesia and subdued those rulers who would not see the light voluntarily. Like the European rulers were to do centuries later they enhanced their numbers by making local alliances then used their allies to increase the number of troops they could field.

	12-12-2004 18:53									#67
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Which passage , exactly ?

" Indra is praised for killing thousands of the abject tribes of Dasas with his arrow and taking great vengeance with "murdering weapons " . (Rig Veda IV:28:3-4)

One hymn mentions sending thirty thousand Dasas "to slumber" and another hymn sixty thousand slain.

A hymn dedicated to the weapons of war (Rig Veda VI:75) refers to a warrior "armed with mail," using a bow to win cattle and subdue all regions, "upstanding in the car the skillful charioteer guides his strong horses on whithersoe'er he will."

The arrows had iron mouths and shafts "with venom smeared" that "not one be left alive."

Hymn VII:83 begins, "Looking to you and your alliance, O ye men, armed with broad axes they went forward, fain for spoil. Ye smote and slew his Dasa and his Aryan enemies."


The basic belief of the prayers and sacrifices is that they will help them to gain their desires and overcome their enemies, as in Rig Veda VIII:31:15: "The man who, sacrificing, strives to win the heart of deities will conquer those who worship not." Some awareness of a higher law seems to be dawning in the eighth book in hymn 75: "The holy law hath quelled even mighty men of war. Break ye not off our friendship, come and set me free." However, the enemies are now identified with the Asuras and still are intimidated by greater weapons: "Weaponless are the Asuras, the godless: scatter them with thy wheel, impetuous hero." (Rig Veda VIII:85:9)



In the first book of the Rig Veda .... Indra is thanked for winning wealth in horses, cattle, and gold by his chariot. Agni helps to slay the many in war by the hands of the few, "preserving our wealthy patrons with thy succors, and ourselves." (Rig Veda I:31:6, 42) Indra helped win the Aryan victory:

He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus,
after his wont, and laid them low with arrows.
The mighty thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends
won the land, the sunlight, and the waters.4

Indra is praised for crushing the godless races and breaking down their forts. (Rig Veda I:174)

In the tenth and last book of the Rig Veda..... Indra still urges the heroes to slay the enemies; his "hand is prompt to rend and burn, O hero thunder-armed: as thou with thy companions didst destroy the whole of Sushna's brood." (Rig Veda X:22)

Hymn 50 of this most recent last book urges Indra to win riches with valor "in the war for water on their fields." Now the prayer is that "we Gods may quell our Asura foemen." (Rig Veda X:53:4)

The first indication of the caste system is outlined in the hymn to Purusha, the embodied human spirit, who is one-fourth creature and three-fourths eternal life in heaven.

" The Brahmin was his mouth,
of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya,
from his feet the Sudra was produced." 5

The Brahmin caste was to be the priests and teachers; the Rajanya represents the king, head of the warrior or Kshatriya caste; Vaishyas are the merchants, craftsmen, and farmers; and the Sudras are the workers. In hymn 109 the brahmachari or student is mentioned as engaged in duty as a member of God's own body. "

http://www.san.beck.org/EC7-Vedas.html


So there does appear to be a whole lotta slayin' goin' on- well before Alexander or the Ghaznavids appeared on the scene.


Veils are not exclusively Islamic- veils were worn by Iranian Zoroastrian women, and also in the Byzantine and earlier Roman Empires.

	12-12-2004 18:57									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha.

Go to Persia.

Actually, don't go to Persia.

	12-12-2004 19:40									#69
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha. Go to Persia. Actually, don't go to Persia.

Have you ever had Iranian food, Az ?

Damn tasty.


Very good looking Iranian women too. Well at least their ankles are.

	12-12-2004 19:42									#70
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Have you ever had Iranian food, Az ? Damn tasty.

We've got the immigrants.

quote: Very good looking Iranian women too. Well at least their ankles are.

It's a real crying shame. Hopefully the scum that rule the country will be gone soon ( One can hope )

	12-12-2004 21:55									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree that religion is what the people make of it. And by and large Islam, like Christianity and any other religion is largely peaceful.

However, first influences I believe are important. Just the stand alone fact that the great prophet of Islam was himself a conquerer, and the founder of Christianity was a pacificst who was brutally tortured and killed are widely divergent starting points. Christianity spread through peaceful missionary means, going out to the barbarians in Europe and gaining pity by being killed by Romans. Whereas Islam was spread by the sword.

Not to say there hasn't been much violence from Christian nations, but these are radically different origins, and that does have an influence on a people.

	13-12-2004 00:03									#72
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Actually, Christianity spread through a combination of peace and violence. There were missionaries who peacefully converted those who were interested.

But there were also feudal lords who sent out armed missionaries or outright warriors to give pagans a choice of either converting, or being massacred.

	13-12-2004 01:50									#73
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MrFun Actually, Christianity spread through a combination of peace and violence. There were missionaries who peacefully converted those who were interested. But there were also feudal lords who sent out armed missionaries or outright warriors to give pagans a choice of either converting, or being massacred.

And then there were missionaries and nations who didn't only convert those "interested" but operated with a combination of more subtle force and power, like toying with economic and social benefits within the community for those who converted, applying social pressure once a certain number of neophytes had been gathered etc.
And islam didn't solely with fire and sword either, actually in most regions the same power mechanisms worked: The system benefitted those who converted.

	13-12-2004 02:12									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III And then there were missionaries and nations who didn't only convert those "interested" but operated with a combination of more subtle force and power, like toying with economic and social benefits within the community for those who converted, applying social pressure once a certain number of neophytes had been gathered etc. And islam didn't solely with fire and sword either, actually in most regions the same power mechanisms worked: The system benefitted those who converted.

yep

	13-12-2004 06:03									#75
	Support Apolyton

quote: That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha.

male bedouins and berbers also wear a burkha-like face covering. it was used to protect the face from the swirling sands. interesting how something so practical came to mean other things.


as for Christianity spreading peacefully... huh?

at least with the muslims, when they conquered territory they largely left the Christians and Jews alone except for forcing them to pay an additional tax. Christianity was spread through systematic and violent conversions. you could not safely be anything but Christian in a Christian nation (jews in Europe before the 18th century). At least the Muslims largely left the huge numbers of Christians in Spain, Sicily, the Balkans, Syria, Yemen, etc. alone excepting for a tax.

	13-12-2004 07:39									#76
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

And from what I read, the Jews under Muslim rule were much better off than Jews under Christian rule.

	13-12-2004 08:00									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

insanely better off... aside from a tax, Christians and Jews were not at all ill-treated by their Muslim rulers. whereas Christian nations since Constantine's Rome have been rife with expulsions and progroms of Jews, Islamic nations never had any history of such things until the 20th century.

in the 17th century, when Akbar the Great, the Muslim Mogul sultan, invited philosophers and theologians from around the world to discuss religious matters, he and all the other religious congregations of jews, muslims, nestorians, hindus, buddhists, confucists, taoist, etc. all found the Jesuit theologians to be violent, intolerant, and single/narrow-minded. that experience epitomizes Christianity until recently.

when a Muslim monarch puts out his hand to have a free and open discussion of religion, the world's religions respond with friendly debate and discussion except for the Christians who blindly and intolerantly insisted on their version of God.

history shows that with only a rare exception (the Quakers), Christians were the civilized world's intolerant, violent bastards until the Enlightenment. so bizarre considering the especially kind, gentle, and tolerant founder.

	13-12-2004 08:26									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It's interesting that often governments of Islamic states (such as the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates) discouraged conversion to Islam (to maximize tax revenue).

quote: history shows that with only a rare exception (the Quakers), Christians were the civilized world's intolerant, violent bastards until the Enlightenment. so bizarre considering the especially kind, gentle, and tolerant founder.

Not really. Between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Clunyist reform movement in the 10th century, Christianity was suprisingly tolerant towards other religions.

	13-12-2004 08:39									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Clunyist reform movement in the 10th century, Christianity was suprisingly tolerant towards other religions.

Not really towards the Jews... look at the words of Saint John Chrysostom, an anti-semite if there was one. Some Christians believed Jews were part of the same branch, but most of Christianity believed in Chrysostom's teachings about them messing up God's word, which necessitated the sending of the Messiah, who the Jews killed, etc. His works were very influential, even after the Empire fell.

And Speer, while Muslims were, as a whole, much more tolerant and did not ill treat Christians and Jews, some areas in some periods of history did engage in some persecution, such as the early Seljuks.

	13-12-2004 08:43									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nonetheless, significant numbers of pogroms didn't start again until the end the millennium. The ideology of intolerance was primarily a byproduct of soceity (especially parts of the Church) directing feudal violence away from Christians and towards "the others."

Last edited by Ramo on 13-12-2004 at 08:52

	13-12-2004 08:50									#81
	Increase Your PM Length

Saying you are bad because of your religion, but not wiping you out is still intolerance.

	13-12-2004 08:50									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Suprisingly tolerant isn't the same thing as tolerant.

	13-12-2004 08:55									#83
	Put an end to popups!

I wouldn't call disdain and disgust for a group as 'suprisingly tolerant' either, at least not compared to Roman tradition on cults .

	13-12-2004 08:57									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Did I ever mention that it's somewhat ridiculous sometimes, to argue back and forth which religion has been more oppressive in its history?


Oh, and since I wanted to keep the winking smilie going . . . .

	13-12-2004 09:01									#85
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As if it could go on forever.

	13-12-2004 09:02									#86
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: I wouldn't call disdain and disgust for a group as 'suprisingly tolerant' either, at least not compared to Roman tradition on cults

This disgust wasn't universal. And the Roman Empire towards the end was pretty damn oppressive to religious dissidents. Look at all the **** that Augustine was advocating.

	13-12-2004 09:07									#87
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: This disgust wasn't universal. And the Roman Empire towards the end was pretty damn oppressive to religious dissidents.

Well mostly after Christians took it over (Theodosius II and all). Before hand, the Roman Empire only acted against those cults which formented political defiance (such as when the Jews started to feel too important in the 1st Century and the Christians before Constantine). They didn't care so much about what different religions believed, as long as they didn't stray into political issues. The Jews, for instance, were mostly left alone before and after that unplesantness around 70 CE.

And I'd say the disgust was held by a large majority.

	13-12-2004 09:11									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Well mostly after Christians took it over (Theodosius II and all).

Of course.

quote: And I'd say the disgust was held by a large majority.

Since Gallup and Zogby weren't around back then, I can't say. But there were prominent exceptions.

	13-12-2004 09:13									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: But there were prominent exceptions.

I agree there were exceptions but a lot of the people considered Church founders expressed a lot of anti-semetic statements... setting up what occured later.

	13-12-2004 15:13									#90
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer insanely better off... aside from a tax, Christians and Jews were not at all ill-treated by their Muslim rulers.

Oh what a pile of crap.


If you are going to study Islamic history at least do it in some depth, not tactfully omitting the eruptions of puritanical Islamic sects who had no compunction about offering a choice of submission or sword to peoples of the book.

It's entirely possible to combine great artistic and scientific achievement with cruel and arbitrary behaviour based on 'interpretation' of religious texts, but glossing over the more sanguine episodes as you do is dishonest.