18-12-2004 01:17									#31
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Who said spending thousands of dollars on a painting was a good idea?

There could be several problems with this.

1. You can create capital in the game.
2. It's addiciting.
3. There is not regulation of the economy.

What would happen if these games became hugely popular, sucked up much of the capital out of the economy, and the vitual economy collapsed.

	18-12-2004 01:19									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Imagine if the server crashed and all the data was lost

Well, that's another serious risk.

	18-12-2004 02:44									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Imagine if the server crashed and all the data was lost

That's like saying, to someone buying a computer game, "imagine if your computer crashed and all the data was lost! " So you'd have to reinstall it... big deal. A MMORPG can't crash and lose an entire part of the game.

	18-12-2004 02:45									#34
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But this kind of stuff adds a lot of weight on development teams.
Now if they make a decision which is good entertainment wise, but might hurt some ppl who have real money invested, they might get a lot of pressure...

I can see lots of other problems tied to this (I mean that this could indirectly hurt the enter. value of the game)

	18-12-2004 02:49									#35
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I believe Project Entropia is built on the idea that people buy in-game things with real money, I am guessing that he bought this island from the 'game' itself.

	18-12-2004 03:07									#36
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I wonder if the guy who got outbid for this is feeling better about holding onto his 25K or so.

Any money spent on stuff in the game is just spending money recreationally. It's ridiculous to suggest that the real economy would collapse because everyone spent their money in a virtual environment. It's impossible, you can't set the luxury slider all the way to 100%.... uh oh

No seriously, it's no problem. I hope everyone invests their money into virtual realities. I won't, and relatively speaking, I will be better off than everyone else despite not moving forward in any absolute terms.

	18-12-2004 03:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd That's like saying, to someone buying a computer game, "imagine if your computer crashed and all the data was lost! " So you'd have to reinstall it... big deal. A MMORPG can't crash and lose an entire part of the game.

Why not?

	18-12-2004 03:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I believe Project Entropia is built on the idea that people buy in-game things with real money, I am guessing that he bought this island from the 'game' itself.

I don't know if the company gets any, but the players can create capital in the game, and sell it in the real world.

	18-12-2004 03:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Any money spent on stuff in the game is just spending money recreationally.

I don't think so. This guy expects to get a return on this.

	18-12-2004 03:31									#40
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I didnt know Entropia was built around this whole concept, so I guess for the game itself its not a problem then.

So I guess its ok in this case.

	18-12-2004 03:38									#41
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it's times like these I'm reassured I'm not as geeky as I think I am.

	18-12-2004 03:44									#42
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Wow, think of the possibilty. A few people who have too much time on their hands and a little capital can make careers out of playing this game. It's a zero sum game of course, so other people who play this game on a more recreational level are going to be giving their money to this guy and a few others like him. But given enough interests in this MMOG, you can make your entire livelihood on virtual real estate in a video game. This is good news for gaming geeks everywhere

Unfortunetly, I don't have the time to invest in game like that anymore despite having the money

	18-12-2004 03:58									#43
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There was an article posted here written by an economist about how MMORGs now have real exachnge rates. Someone can easily make minimum wage playing an MMORG, and selling the items they make, indeed companies have been set up to gather items and sell them at a profit. The legal problems come that if the company running the game decides to remove it, everything is lost, and there's little comeback, since the company running the game has no legal responsibility to these items. Moreover, they could add much money to the game, increasing inflation and reducing the worth considerably. It's very risky, but I don't see why it shouldn't be seen as that, people buy MMORG items on eBay all the time for real money.

	18-12-2004 04:00									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides It's a zero sum game of course,

Not actually. People enter the game, thus increasing demand for items and land. As more people use it and gain benefit from it, the value of everything in the game increases.

	18-12-2004 04:01									#45
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I'm suprised that there doesn't seem to be any polytubbies that have played any games like this.

In a game like this you would be at a serious disadvantage if you didn't have money to invest. I wonder how they work things like that out.

	18-12-2004 04:06									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Not actually. People enter the game, thus increasing demand for items and land. As more people use it and gain benefit from it, the value of everything in the game increases.

That's just inflation though

	18-12-2004 04:09									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Not actually. People enter the game, thus increasing demand for items and land. As more people use it and gain benefit from it, the value of everything in the game increases.

The problem with this is that the people who control the game can introduce elements that will modify the value of everything whenever they want to. Or can't they?
Who decides whether the volcano on that island is going to erupt in 6 months, driving property prices down to 0?

	18-12-2004 04:20									#48
	Full PM-box? Change here!

One would think that they would not do anything that would threaten asset values like that. If people are investing to play the game they aren't going to play anymore if volcanos start whiping away people's investments.

	18-12-2004 04:30									#49
	Suffering from ads?

I was using an extreme to demonstrate the point, but then again, their own website says that this island is " A large island off a newly discovered continent ", which seems to indicate that they introduce new and important stuff whenever they want to.

They made 26 000$ with a new island: how much are they going to get for the new continent?

	18-12-2004 04:36									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

I'd like to see what happens after this guy sells his island for 52k?

	18-12-2004 04:45									#51
	Got spare money?

Apolyton already sells real estate.

It's called, Poly Plus.

	18-12-2004 04:50									#52
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't think so. This guy expects to get a return on this.

That's not relevant. People profit and lose from ventures all the time. It doesn't matter how the activity is categorized. The only differention is that some economic activities are better bets than others. This particular one is not a very well grounded idea to invest in for many of the reasons stated earlier.

	18-12-2004 05:12									#53
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Big risk, big potential return. Besides, it's a lot more fun than stock options or municipal bonds.

	18-12-2004 05:13									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner That's not relevant. People profit and lose from ventures all the time. It doesn't matter how the activity is categorized. The only differention is that some economic activities are better bets than others. This particular one is not a very well grounded idea to invest in for many of the reasons stated earlier.

When people lose wealth it affects all of us.

	18-12-2004 05:23									#55
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Say, are there any online games where a communist system has been implemented?

	18-12-2004 06:15									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why not?

If the servers crash, the worst that can happen is a roll-back, meaning that things done in the last few hours may be lost (the equivelant of losing a save game in a computer crash - although not as serious, because it's backed up routinely) an entire island can't just vanish from the game.

It might be possible for him to lose ownership of it if a crash happened shortly after making the transaction, but that would probably be sorted out easily.

	18-12-2004 06:30									#57
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't know if the company gets any, but the players can create capital in the game, and sell it in the real world.

If I understand correctly, Project Entropia is free to play but you have to pay real money for items (or bum it off other people who are kind enough) which allow you to actually progress to the point where you can *really *play the game and aquire in-game money on your own, which can then be 'invested' in other in-game items or exchanged for real-world currency.

There's also an in-game auction system, so eBay really isn't neccisary for this game.



.... Looking at their website a bit, here's some blurbs:

quote: While on the planet Calypso you use the PED currency to invest in your personal development. The assets you acquire can be exchanged back into real world funds.

quote: 1. The PED The virtual currency in Project Entropia is PED, or Project Entropia Dollars. The fixed exchange rate equals 10 PED = 1 US Dollar. Note that transaction fees may be added to your deposit or withdrawal depending on what option you choose for these transactions. 2. PED Card When real world money is exchanged into the Project Entropia currency, it's transferred to your personal PED Card. The PED Card gives you access to your in-world money and the economy service system in Project Entropia. The PED card is a permanent part of your character's inventory. The card cannot be removed from your character and the PED connected to the card cannot be lost or stolen while in the virtual universe. Your PED Card can be used for any form of practical transactions when you buy or trade items. You are able to use the card directly to pay for things using the credit card item. Cash items can be also extracted from the card or transferred into the card. 3. Deposits You deposit via this website or by clicking the Bank button in Project Entropia. For more information about the various options, please click the Transfer button above. You will usually need to make an initial deposit via the web before you can use that deposit option from within Project Entropia. 4. Withdrawals You can convert the PEDs back into real world cash by initiating a withdrawal from within Project Entropia by clicking the Bank button. You may then enter you bank information and if your Project Entropia account information matches the holder of the bank account the withdrawal will be approved by MindArk. The fees and time for your withdrawal is presented when you initiate the withdrawal from within Project Entropia.

	18-12-2004 06:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious When people lose wealth it affects all of us.

There's many ways to look at this. First and foremost, the quality of the "wealth" is at question here.

Does it really affect me if someone spends 25K for some virtual bs...it "appreciated" to 50K and then the bottom fell out of this "market" leaving the owner with a value of zero?

Sounds like he just spent 25K for entertainment to me. Why wouldn't all the money spent on movies, vacations, etc be counting as "losing wealth affecting us all"?

	18-12-2004 07:11									#59
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd If the servers crash, the worst that can happen is a roll-back, meaning that things done in the last few hours may be lost (the equivelant of losing a save game in a computer crash - although not as serious, because it's backed up routinely) an entire island can't just vanish from the game.

I see a couple of problems with this. First of all, an outright crash can be covered, but what if there's a bug (actually there always will be bugs in programs like this) that just gets worse over time? It will just corrupt all the backup copies with no way out. I have seen that happen a few times, mostly having something to do with Windows. A related problem is when a player finds a bug and secretly exploits it. I don't envision a reset is possible in this game.

Secondly, since this is all virtual, an entire island can certain vanish. Afterall, it's just a small data structure inside the database.

	18-12-2004 07:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd That's like saying, to someone buying a computer game, "imagine if your computer crashed and all the data was lost! " So you'd have to reinstall it... big deal. A MMORPG can't crash and lose an entire part of the game.

Of course it can.