30-01-2005 14:23									#31
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Letting the player select is also possible but you have to type the figures. A drop-down requires only two clicks. Which do you prefer? Both are about the same to code.

	30-01-2005 15:32									#32
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Ideally? Both.
Immediately? Player-specified.

	01-02-2005 23:34									#33
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Migrants - I have a few problems with them.

1. How fast do they move? I mean if they're leaving my civ for another civ, I could then easily kill them.
2. How much population do they represent? Say i did attack them, would they all die?
3. Say I attacked them, would any of them make it to the end location? Would the remaining few settle in the area? Would they split up?
4, How often does it recalculate the path? I mean in a few turns the map can change. They may no longer like the original location. Some obviously would stay, because they don't feel like keeping wandering, but maybe not all or even most of them will.

Explorers - I like the idea. but it needs some work.
1. Often explorers were sent on specific missions, sometimes they failed, sometimes they were partily successful, sometimes theyn were successful, smetimes they were found out more info than needed. Also time varied, especially if they happened to accidently go somewhere they weren't meaning to and had to find another way back, sometimes without the original exploerer.
However, eventually if its an out-and-out failure, we should let the player know.
2. Often these explorations cost lots of money, especially later on. While shoveling money on an explorer shouldn't make a guarantee, giving them more money to outfit the expedition should improve the chances.
3. As i said before, often i may want a specific region explorered or exploration for a specific resource, not just random exploration.
4. I agree military units shouldn't be used for exploration. However if we don't (and its quite easy simply don't give them the ability to see or move in areas that are undiscovered, then we run into a problem when there's a war with a nation we don't know much about. As you said, this would be the time military units would be a kind of explorer, but they, like any explorer wouldn't know where to go exactly. The problem is, this could be exploited if its not done carefully to have the player go to war and then use military units to explore completely unrelated places. However if the player isn't given the possibility to use his militarty units for explortation here, he has to spend costly money and time on an explorer than might fail, being very unhistoric, and possibly allowing the other nation to overtake him while he can't do anything but defend.

	02-02-2005 01:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai Migrants - I have a few problems with them. 1. How fast do they move? I mean if they're leaving my civ for another civ, I could then easily kill them.

Movement would be perhaps equivalent to moving siege machinery, but then they might have horses like the mongolians and move reasonably fast. Killing them is fine.

quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai 2. How much population do they represent? Say i did attack them, would they all die?

They would represent a variable amount of population. The death rate in combat could be calculated using existing combat modelling.

quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai 3. Say I attacked them, would any of them make it to the end location? Would the remaining few settle in the area? Would they split up?

That would depend on normal combat modelling. If you attack the migrant with a big army, then many die. Splitting of the migrant would need to be modelled.

quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai 4, How often does it recalculate the path? I mean in a few turns the map can change. They may no longer like the original location. Some obviously would stay, because they don't feel like keeping wandering, but maybe not all or even most of them will.

Obviously this would need modelling, but it could be relatively simple.

quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai simply don't give them the ability to see or move in areas that are undiscovered

Rather than preventing military units exploring it would make sense to make it more cost effective to use explorers (this is more realistic too).

	02-02-2005 05:27									#35
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quote: Originally posted by demipomme Rather than preventing military units exploring it would make sense to make it more cost effective to use explorers (this is more realistic too).

That was my general intention.

	02-02-2005 09:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 That was my general intention.

That won't likely fly because people in these games prefer guaranteed results if they can get them rather than spending money they figure only has a chance off success.

And if you make the success rate high, well then its very easy to explore most of the world early on.

	02-02-2005 09:14									#37
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quote: Originally posted by demipomme Movement would be perhaps equivalent to moving siege machinery, but then they might have horses like the mongolians and move reasonably fast. Killing them is fine.

Well in theory that would be okay, but really such mass migrations are only as fast as the slowest person they're willing to wait for.

quote: Originally posted by demipomme They would represent a variable amount of population. The death rate in combat could be calculated using existing combat modelling. That would depend on normal combat modelling. If you attack the migrant with a big army, then many die. Splitting of the migrant would need to be modelled.

Well the variable rate has its good and bad points, but i guess more good than bad.

Still since even moderate force can take out a mass of civilinans (yes there likely will be some militarily trained people in the group, but its not the same as a military unit) this could happen quite often, especially before the introduction of War Crimes.

quote: Originally posted by demipomme Obviously this would need modelling, but it could be relatively simple.

Well every turn doesn't need to be done every 3 turns might be good number and also when they arrive, no matter what turn it is.

On other thing...this obviously covers large scale migrations, but most migrations aren't that way...so i think that type of migration should take priority for implemenation.

	02-02-2005 16:19									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai That won't likely fly because people in these games prefer guaranteed results if they can get them rather than spending money they figure only has a chance off success. And if you make the success rate high, well then its very easy to explore most of the world early on.

People may prefer guaranteed results, but if it cost 20 times as much to move a military unit out than to move an explorer out, wouldn't you rather take 20 chances with decent success than 1 with certain success? Even if only 1/4 comes back, thats four times as much map uncovered for the same amount of money, granted it's just an example.

	02-02-2005 22:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 People may prefer guaranteed results, but if it cost 20 times as much to move a military unit out than to move an explorer out, wouldn't you rather take 20 chances with decent success than 1 with certain success? Even if only 1/4 comes back, thats four times as much map uncovered for the same amount of money, granted it's just an example.

It depends. If I'm not caring to much what I explore than yes, but if i am, such as in a war, then its different. Plus there is a time lag which in a war can be very devasting.

	03-02-2005 00:06									#40
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Historically, most geographical information was gathered from travellers and traders. This information was usually free and up to date. Modelling this alongside explorers and espionage would negate exploring with military units.

	03-02-2005 00:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai It depends. If I'm not caring to much what I explore than yes, but if i am, such as in a war, then its different. Plus there is a time lag which in a war can be very devasting.

I highly doubt that exploration during war will be a top priority. Spying and Scouting, sure, but this does not cover either.

	06-02-2005 08:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 I highly doubt that exploration during war will be a top priority. Spying and Scouting, sure, but this does not cover either.

It depends on if you even know what the region is. If an enemy with an unkown land attacks you, and you repel the attack, then yes exploration to find this enemy would be a top priority, especially if then sent another wave of attackers.

However, if you can model it the way demipomme mentioned, without giving too much, ie mostly bits and pieces especially of unexplored areas further away or less traveled, then it might be okay.

	14-02-2005 03:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai It depends on if you even know what the region is. If an enemy with an unkown land attacks you, and you repel the attack, then yes exploration to find this enemy would be a top priority, especially if then sent another wave of attackers. However, if you can model it the way demipomme mentioned, without giving too much, ie mostly bits and pieces especially of unexplored areas further away or less traveled, then it might be okay.

If he's close enough to launch an attack, most likely you'll already know where he's at through your merchant's previous trading for province maps or explorers you sent out prior to the attack.

	14-02-2005 03:45									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Lord God Jinnai On other thing...this obviously covers large scale migrations, but most migrations aren't that way...so i think that type of migration should take priority for implemenation.

Actually no it doesn't just cover large scale migrations. The migrant could just as easily be 4 people as it can be 4000 people.

	14-02-2005 03:47									#45
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quote: Originally posted by demipomme Historically, most geographical information was gathered from travellers and traders. This information was usually free and up to date. Modelling this alongside explorers and espionage would negate exploring with military units.

As I mentioned before, merchants purchase maps to model this sort of thing. It's free to the player, but not to the merchant.

	15-02-2005 04:50									#46
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 Actually no it doesn't just cover large scale migrations. The migrant could just as easily be 4 people as it can be 4000 people.

Although I agree the migrant could be used for more than large scale migrations, I would hasten to point out that modelling the migration of groups as small as 4 people would put a lot of units on the map.

I think perhaps the migrant unit would only be applicable for migrations into territory that is not already owned by that civ.

	15-02-2005 07:09									#47
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quote: Originally posted by demipomme Although I agree the migrant could be used for more than large scale migrations, I would hasten to point out that modelling the migration of groups as small as 4 people would put a lot of units on the map. I think perhaps the migrant unit would only be applicable for migrations into territory that is not already owned by that civ.

Which is why I suggested that the player be able to select the minimum distance of travel before displaying the migrant, it could also be expanded to a minimum size.

	08-05-2005 17:09									#48
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Here's a small coding status.
From the original plan in the first post in the thread, for the points where I'm an actor: A few stuff is added where relevant.

AI (Laurent)
-Checking ai siege and reinforcement code. 90%
->OK. This could need some more reginement, and I still need to have the ai decommission units.
-AI for naval units including loading and unloading land units
-> Not done.
-AI for exploration
->OK.
-order to pursue/attack particular enemy TF
->OK.
-AI knows to attack province capitals
->OK.
some start on an over all military AI including fronts (demo 8.2?)
-> Not done.
-some start on overall planning [The ai would be much better if it had a high level planning that decided whether subplans should be explore and defend, attack and defend, attack explore and defend, and what in what proportion. Add in shifting economic stance from peace time to war time eventually] (demo 8.2?)
-> Not done.

Military (Laurent)
-refine city wall availability, cost and effect
-> Not done. I'd rather rework the military model a lot so I am not sure I'll change "just" the walls.
-supply level affects movement rate (can be offset by forraging which can damage economy)
-> Done, but foraging is not taken into account.

Diplomacy (Vovan, Laurent)
Some diplomacy with the ai to handle it. Simple ways to handle war to peace and peace to war transition. adjust depending on what Vovan thinks he can achieve
-> Not done.

Technology (alms, Mark, Laurent)
more complete ancient Tech tree. As has been pointed out many technologies will need game functions before they are interesting to the player. Integrate technology changes better with economics and social models, and modify military model as needed. Take ten to twenty technologies that currently have no effects and give them game effects
-> Not done.
integrate activity tag with subtag weight/rank inside technology tag
-> Partly done - activity now has a weight instead of proportion so you don't have to do all the compuations by hand, but it's not yet integrated.
Add a tag with a text to be displayed when a tech reaches a given level, instead of systematically putting a message when an (integer) level is reached.
-> Not done.

Government and social models (Laurent, Mark, alms)
Enhancing social model code. Give all government social policies meaning in terms of economic productivity, technological development rate, military effectiveness, and in other areas as appropriate.
-> See below.

Miscellaneous (TBD)
City Creation Ability (founding cities at least, but automated creation would be extra gravy). One thing that could be done is to automatically chose cities as capitals of provinces instead of the current system (when a province is lost). Plus relocating capital by the ai.
-> Not done.

Graphics
-show provincial and civ capitals on map (star in civ color or something)
-> Done for provinces.
-rivers and lakes (8.2?)
-> Not done.
-military unit images to be the size of tiles
-> This is to let units have a standard size. I had done most of it but went back because instead of making computations to show unit on the tile, I make harder computations to show them in the TF box. I may still do it if I get an idea of how to do it fine.
-Make the map filter menu checkboxed or radiobuttoned.
-> Not done.
-Overlay for borders instead of inner white lines.
-> Not done. (I made the code use an overlay for the selection cursor).
-Map filter colors to be consistent.
-> Map filters use various colours. I'm done making sure red = bad and green = good consistently, but riot info is never green, just shades of red. I am not sure about how to handle riots consistently here since any riot shouild be red.

Now on the social/government model, I have rewritten almost all the riots code. I had coded 2 "PAF"s (bad policies and discrimination) and given an event associated to each, and computed them per square. Now I have coded all the Pro Action Feelings (except Poor Welfare which requires Per Capita Income), and compute them per province instead of per square. There are 7 different kinds of Pro Action Feelings but 9 different effects. I am currently finishing the code of these effects, knowing that some (rebel duke) have effects on variables (Province Autonomy) that are not clear to me (are they supposed to change only by themselves, can be changed but no lower than what the events provide...) I still have to fill the army betrayal, revolutionary, murder attempt and military coup events. I hope I'll get finished on that part next month (won't be able to code much for 2 weeks).

	20-05-2005 18:19									#49
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Thanks for the update Laurent. I hope that you won't be able to code because you're having fun!

I haven't had much of any clash time lately. Let me know about a week before if you're going to need something from me. I did commit the PCI stuff, but still owe you some other things.

	28-05-2005 17:31									#50
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I finally got everything to compile and not crash the game immediately. I will check what the newly coded social model does soon, but I have still have some trouble with some equations.
One important thing in the model is revolutions and independance. I didn't code the civil war declaration yet, but considered all opponents to be civs. Rebels are 'feudal' units (that's what is in Demo8), but revolutionaries are full-fledged civs. We'll probably need a naming scheme soon. Some of the effects of the model (causing a government change on capturing the capital) will have to wait until I have debugged a bit more.

	11-06-2005 16:47									#51
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The social model is coded as I said in the Social Model thread. I have updated the walls code because there was a bug if the wall wasn't defended, the square couldn't be conquered. I changed the siege code a bit as a consequence.

	07-07-2005 16:00									#52
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I implemented a first draft of the naval ai; still have some work to finish but it's at least not making things worse. I'll probably need interception orders. I also wonder whether ships should have a sight of 2 squares away because of their big movement ability and because such a good sight would certainly help the ai scout properly and detect enemies far from their coasts.
I'm going to redo the social model equations which need changing for gameplay (nationalistic rebellion feeling mostly) based on feedback in the Social Model thread.

	07-07-2005 20:47									#53
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I also wonder whether ships should have a sight of 2 squares away because of their big movement ability and because such a good sight would certainly help the ai scout properly and detect enemies far from their coasts.

I'd say that the early game should have land units with a view radius of 1 and sea units with a view radius of 2, increasing with technology by +1 per 20 units of tech for land units and +1 per 10 units of tech for sea units (or something close to that). Also, a unit's view radius should be halved in inappropriate terrain, that is land units only see half as far at sea, and sea units only see half as far on land. I haven't actually calculated anything on that, it's just a gut feeling/gameplay kind of thing.

	08-07-2005 02:12									#54
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This sounds sensible. Civ2 had this sea units don't see far into land limitation, with the quirk that you could see the sea behind the land and not really have line of sight blocked. Civ3 blocks sights with mountains, which is probably a good thing too.

	09-08-2005 01:09									#55
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare -> Map filters use various colours. I'm done making sure red = bad and green = good consistently, but riot info is never green, just shades of red. I am not sure about how to handle riots consistently here since any riot shouild be red.

Squares which are not rioting show in green, while rioting squares still show in shades of red? Personally, I think some sort of icon would be a better way to display this, sort of like the 'battle occured here' icon of crossed swords, but for riots, show a black or red fist instead, and I'd recommend scrapping the 'rioting squares' filter. If we ever get around to using animated gifs, we could do a plume of smoke and fire or something like that...


-Edit-
btw, I gave Gary a set of river images a while back. I don't have them anymore, maybe you can ask him to upload them to the repository?

and...

With the major rewrite of the social model code, once it's stabalized, don't you guys think it would be a good idea to release 8.1, and move the remainder of the 'to-do' list to 8.2?

	12-08-2005 23:32									#56
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We can put a riotting square icon, but the severity of riots varies. The filter gives that information. Adding a fist could be done too, but the space in the square is a bit crowded.
As for releasing the game when the social code is stabilised, I do agree. I'm doing changes based on what I feel, but external input would really help. I currently have a really ugly user interface for province autonomy...

	13-08-2005 04:56									#57
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare We can put a riotting square icon, but the severity of riots varies. The filter gives that information. Adding a fist could be done too, but the space in the square is a bit crowded.

True, I guess severity is something you might want to see... both filter & icon would be too much.

Btw, I just updated my code, and I'll be giving Clash a go tonight.

-Edit-
Well I was going to give Clash a try last night, but unfortunately that's just one more thing that's not working right on my new computer.

	30-08-2005 03:35									#58
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Technology (alms, Mark, Laurent)
more complete ancient Tech tree.

For my part, I've got a rough sketch of the tree for the ancient age. It's roughly 50 technologies, but it going to look a little different for each of the simple, moderate and detailed versions.

I'm currently integrating the simple system into the Ancient Aegean scenario. If anyone with the testbed wants it, email me and I'll send it out to you- if you don't have the testbed and would like that and the scenario, again, email me and I'll send it.