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Zeiter
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Yes, boreholes sound like a good idea.
It definitely looks like, from their peace proposals, that they were hoping and expecting that we'd give in and sign a treaty again. Especially from the fact that they still aren't getting themselves on a defensive footing as of 2154, it shows that the Morganites are gambling on the prospect that we'll forgive them. If only they knew what a dire and risky gamble it was, and what it is now going to cost them. If we can obliterate the PTS and HGP, the entire Morganite nation will instantly be plunged into massive drone riots, giving us yet one more turn to tear them apart before they can get rushed defenders built. This is going to be so sweet.
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Snoddasmannen
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Welcome back Zeiter! Good to see you, active members don't grow on trees in Sparta 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeiter
It definitely looks like, from their peace proposals, that they were hoping and expecting that we'd give in and sign a treaty again. Especially from the fact that they still aren't getting themselves on a defensive footing as of 2154, it shows that the Morganites are gambling on the prospect that we'll forgive them. If only they knew what a dire and risky gamble it was, and what it is now going to cost them. If we can obliterate the PTS and HGP, the entire Morganite nation will instantly be plunged into massive drone riots, giving us yet one more turn to tear them apart before they can get rushed defenders built. This is going to be so sweet. |
Yes I think you're right, this is not at all what they expected
But one thing to remember is that at the time they probed us, our forces were engaged in a conflict in Arcadia. The same turn they declared vendetta on us, Zak surrendered. Now that they know our forces are no longer tied up over there, they might just put two and two together and figure out that "hey - they have an army that's 4 turns away from our soft-spot, and why haven't they signed that peace treaty yet?"
So I fear that they will start mobilizing in their west soon enough ...
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:34
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But again and again my thoughts turn back to the fact that the Morganites declared war on us.
The irrationality of this move has been widely admitted and analysed here, but I still can't fathom what possibly they thought they could stand to gain. Certainly they must have realized that they'd be on our target list after Zak? Instead of getting an opportunity to appeal "oh no! we're being invaded by the evil Spartans!" once we start to steamroll them, they can only meekly whisper "oh drat, I guess we had this coming". We, in turn, can with freedom paint a picture of the yellow faction trying to establish itself into a winning position after crushing their distant second in the interfactional competition, us. And how the Angels and Gaians can stop the Morganite juggernaut only by refraining from co-operating them.
It just amazes me. Morgan had everything to lose and zilch to gain from this vendetta. The Hunter, IMHO, is more than an acceptable price to pay for this diplomatic advantage which can become gamebreaker (mainly, it'll break the Morganites' game).
I mean for the love of god. We're going to PWN them! This is just too damn easy.
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Zeiter
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It would all be different if it weren't for the fact that we have infiltration on them. If we didn't, there's the chance that they would've been able to trick us into sailing a huge armada of ships towards their mainland, only to have them sink it all or probe it all away or something. Instead, we KNOW that they don't have the capability to do any such thing. We KNOW what kind of defenses they have. They can't trick us. Perhaps they've forgotten?
Or perhaps they happen to have a fairly good idea of just how long it would take us to mount an invasion or a raiding party on their lands. I mean, they had infiltration on Zak, so they would have known about where University base was located. They most likely know that our transport is still in that vicinity due to our Uni invasion commitments. They know how far it is from University base (now Arcadia University) to their western shore. They know that we can traverse up to 8 tiles/turn because of the MCC. They know how long it would take a raiding party to reach them. They know how long they have to prepare for such a party. Perhaps they will switch all of their production over to synthmetal skirmishers suddenly 2 turns before we land our party, causing us to find some tough defenses when we get there. I don't know. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with.
One thing I think we should keep in mind is, if it looks like there is ANY doubt that our raiding party will fail in its objective within the first turn of invasion, we need to call it off and wait to combine it with the second invasion force. As of now that doesn't look to be the case, but things could change 4 turns from now.
Last edited by Zeiter on 08-01-2005 at 20:34
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Snoddasmannen
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeiter
Or perhaps they happen to have a fairly good idea of just how long it would take us to mount an invasion or a raiding party on their lands. I mean, they had infiltration on Zak, so they would have known about where University base was located.
:snip:
production over to synthmetal skirmishers suddenly 2 turns before we land our party, causing us to find some tough defenses when we get there. I don't know. That's the only logical explanation I can come up with.
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But still, that's a bit of a leap of faith for them. They can't know how many forces we deployed in Arcadia, we never revealed all of them within range of the University bases. How would they know when to start building skirmishers? (they have no idea how many cruisers with rovers we have coming their way) They should have started right away, building defenses, imo, if they had any idea what we were up to.
But we'll see. Turn will be with us within 2 days. If they still haven't started building defendes, then I'll be happily surprised 
quote:
One thing I think we should keep in mind is, if it looks like there is ANY doubt that our raiding party will fail in its objective within the first turn of invasion, we need to call it off and wait to combine it with the second invasion force. As of now that doesn't look to be the case, but things could change 4 turns from now. |
Definately agreed 
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Zeiter
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quote:
This is why I suggested that we sign peace, even if for 2-3 turns, to keep them in the dark until they're dead for real. |
Well, if we sign a peace treaty, we forfeit all of our diplomatic advantage with the Gaians and Angels because:
1. By signing a treaty, we are essentially saying that we forgive them, and thus, we can use what they did as an excuse for future actions, just as the Morganites can't use our infiltration as an excuse (although in that situation it was entirely legal for us to do that while having a treaty with them. A treaty does not provide a guarantee against such actions. There is no betrayal in carrying out that act. They should have recognized the possibility of a probe attack and properly prepared for it. However, in the case of the Hunter incident, a treaty DOES, or I should say, is supposed to guarantee against mind controlling units. Hence, the game forces them to declare vendetta against us when they commit such an action.)
2. When we do launch the raiding party, it will look like appalling and atrocious aggression instead of retaliation.
We clearly have the diplomatic upper hand right now, and I think that's going to be something very valuable after we mop-up Morgania. It's going to be very tempting to the Angels and Gaians to team up on one of the belligerents in this upcoming Morgan/Sparta conflict. We need to make sure that we don't become the target. Furthermore, the longer we can keep those two neutral in general, after the Morgan invasion, the better chances we'll have at securing victory, and having the diplomatic high-ground with Morgan would help with that.
If we do sign a treaty, and we decide that we will betray them, why don't we go all-out and betray them enormously with one huge invasion? If we can convince them that we aren't going to attack them, then why don't we take full advantage of it and net the PTS and HGP for ourselves?
I suppose what we could do is engineer our negotiations with them to be so much in our favor so as to almost assure their failure. And if they do, for some reason, agree to our demands, then we'll be THAT much better off for the whole incident, and they'll be the ones who come out behind because of their little charade.
Last edited by Zeiter on 08-01-2005 at 21:27
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeiter
Well, if we sign a peace treaty, we forfeit all of our diplomatic advantage with the Gaians and Angels because: |
Any diplomatic advantage will be lost anyway, once we start obliterating bases. And we will. I say we should accept it, and plan for it. The only real advantage is short-term, and I feel we should use it to gain as much as possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeiter
If we do sign a treaty, and we decide that we will betray them, why don't we go all-out and betray them enormously with one huge invasion? If we can convince them that we aren't going to attack them, then why don't we take full advantage of it and net the PTS and HGP for ourselves? |
That is exactly my favourite plan. Make one big mess out of our reputation, but completely crush Morgan in the process.
I'll repeat, that we should try and use Yang to keep the others busy. He's very strong for an AI, and doing some dirty work already, so let's not stop him yet. 
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Snoddasmannen
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeiter
If we do sign a treaty, and we decide that we will betray them, why don't we go all-out and betray them enormously with one huge invasion? If we can convince them that we aren't going to attack them, then why don't we take full advantage of it and net the PTS and HGP for ourselves?
Originally posted by Modo44
That is exactly my favourite plan. Make one big mess out of our reputation, but completely crush Morgan in the process.
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The "full scale invasion right-off" plan looks to be gaining in popularity. I am yet to be convinced that it is better than a PTS raid and a following invasion proper, but regardless it has been discussed a lot and maybe we should make a proper decision regarding this.
A poll perhaps? A live-chat?
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:34
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Perhaps not bases. A lot of cash. I mean A LOT. It's obvious we want compensation, blablabla. Basically, I think we should make the demand look like a real offer, and cash is something they will probably expect. Start high, ("there are some in the Junta raging with fury", blablabla  ), and go down slowly, turn by turn. I don't know, would 500 be high enough?
If they accept it, well, that's their own doom they'd be paying for (insta-build of an even stronger raid?). And if not, no harm done. Well, perhaps "no harm" is the wrong wording in view of what's headed for Morgan lands.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:34
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To try and save our reputation with he Gaians-Angels even after we destroy the PTS, we could perhaps claim in a Phalanx issue that the Morganites had started a huge military build-up the turn after mindcontrolling the Hunter, and that our action was therefore a last ditch attempt to save ourselves from destruction?
quote:
We only probed it because we felt you would kill our probe the next. |
Perhaps you could counterargue, and as Snoddasmannen suggests win time by not yet making a counteroffer, that they not only mindcontrolled the Hunter, but that according to the MorganLink issue, the Morganites left their Spartan embassy and for the second time unilaterally threw our treaties, contracts and agreements out of the window. In other words a full declaraction of war. And that therefore the compensation should be rather high to gain our trust again.
Perhaps you could also ask, if the Hunter's causing them so much trouble with drone riots etc, why didn't they just disband the ship? (They actually used the ship to podpop two unity pods we would otherwise have popped ourselves the next turn. So perhaps as part of a compensation we could ask to be compensated the gain we lost from those pods?
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05-01-2005 05:23
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