21-02-2005 08:02									#31
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They owe us still 48 ec's for the EC and GS deals, and then they illegally docked us 50 ec's for the loss of their Syntharmored probe during our infultration.

So I'd start at the 100 mark

The Hunter cost 120 to replace, and whikle we can't admit to spending 240 ec's to upgrade our 4 lost impact rovers to amphigats, we can certainly say that we expect reparations for the "cost of teaching the Corporation a lasting lesson" - perhaps 1/2 of that - so we'd be asling for 98 re treaty payments and 240 for reparations

Total, rounded, 350 as a lump sum to reinstate the treaty

They'll never agree, of course

G.

	21-02-2005 18:26									#32
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A quick question: since obliterating a base is an atrocity, have the AI factions declared vendetta against you?

	21-02-2005 18:54									#33
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They only do that when you commit a major atrocity = planet buster use. We have taken a reputation hit though. We're now 'scrupulous'.

Btw, the Gaians have said they might need more than 48 hours to finish their turn. I hope the reason isn't diplomacy and determining their position towards us. After all, AFAIK that has never been a reason for a deadline extension.

	21-02-2005 19:25									#34
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Normal diplomacy is not a reason, ie. anything which didn't change considerably on opening the turn, unexpected diplomacy can be. If, on opening the turn, something is very different than planned, more time may be needed. This is not for any normal activities though, such as diplomacy not being finalised in time.

Diplomacy, of any kind, has never been used as a reason, however if on opening the turn something has changed dramatically, be it diplomatic or otherwise, that can result in extensions being granted.

	21-02-2005 20:31									#35
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I imagine they want to poll their members to see what their reaction will be to our killing of 10,000 defenceless Morganites

If I were role-playing the Gaians, I'd at least cancel the treaty between Gaia and Sparta as a punishment - there's no commerce income for ten years anyhow, so it's a cheap enough gesture

	21-02-2005 20:44									#36
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Cancelling a treaty means declaring vendetta, game terms. That would be a bit too harsh, even when RPing.

	21-02-2005 20:52									#37
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A simple question, Drogue. Is the obliteration of a base reason enough to give out extensions? Because I have a feeling all other factions will want them now...

	21-02-2005 21:09									#38
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The other factions could, reasonably, be denied it since they don't have the same inactivity problems.

	21-02-2005 21:14									#39
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Certainly Morgan warrants one

If the Gaians (having just gotten Ecol Eng last turn) were dickering with the Angels to leapfrog to Int Int to get goodies from us, they both might want to completely rethink their attittude to us

Angels might want to use the Atrocity as an excuse to abrogate their Int Int trade with us - then we'd want an extension in order to formulate a reply - meekly accept it or fight for what is right

So, yes, I can see a slew of extensions in the next turn or so - all round

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Cancelling a treaty means declaring vendetta, game terms

Of course, you are right. they can't without vendetta. I agree, it does seem a bit harsh (unless they were leaning that way anyway, with their DoDo Declaration, aping our MoDo Doctrine)

	22-02-2005 03:19									#40
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Does anybody else get the impression that the Morgans simply don't believe us? They might not get the intel from the Gaians, or they might simply not trust them. If I had piled up all those units in and around MI I would certainly be sceptical to our claims ... I would love to read the Morgan postings right now (will make a note for future reference)

quote: DoDo Declaration

Hey, where did they mention this?

	22-02-2005 03:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Does anybody else get the impression that the Morgans simply don't believe us? They might not get the intel from the Gaians, or they might simply not trust them. If I had piled up all those units in and around MI I would certainly be sceptical to our claims ... I would love to read the Morgan postings right now (will make a note for future reference)

Frankly, who cares? It costs us nothing to keep the appearance, and it may be working. If we stop at some point, they will know we were just making it up, but if we keep going, they will always be forced to doubt.

I think they were stalling the negotiations too, for their own reasons. Knowing of our deception could be one reason, if they tried to look like they were buying our story. Nothing is completely certain here, methinks. Plots within plots.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Hey, where did they mention this?

When the Gaians "remembered" how our transport moved in their "territorial waters", and tried to pull money for it. Got rebuffed, naturally.

	22-02-2005 04:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Frankly, who cares? It costs us nothing to keep the appearance, and it may be working. If we stop at some point, they will know we were just making it up, but if we keep going, they will always be forced to doubt.

I think you misunderstood me, I meant that they might not even believe that we actually captured Morgan Industries!

quote: When the Gaians "remembered" how our transport moved in their "territorial waters", and tried to pull money for it. Got rebuffed, naturally.

Ah, okay

	22-02-2005 04:08									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I think you misunderstood me, I meant that they might not even believe that we actually captured Morgan Industries!

	22-02-2005 04:11									#44
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Uh, yes, because actually the University AI pulled it off and we are covering for them because it would be awfully embarrassing for us that our computerixed pactmate would pull something like that off while we twiddle our thumbs, not knowing what to do about the Morganites.

	22-02-2005 04:12									#45
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Oh, and how about that second round of promotions we discussed that would follow a succesful PTS raid? Colonels to (Brigadier) Generals, Lt. Cols to Colonels etc.

	22-02-2005 04:15									#46
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I like - I like it a lot

And a Rear-Admiral for Modo?

Lt Colonels for the other 3 unit commanding officers?

(Plus, Zeiter has quietly been assembling himself a pretty significant task force - R-112 upgraded to amphigat, a Unity Rover, and an Ogre - that's surely worth a Lt. Colonel as well?)

	22-02-2005 04:18									#47
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I can live with promotions.

Just remember, that the game is still going on, and we should stay below maximum rank most of the time.

	22-02-2005 04:24									#48
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Well there are still a few ranks to go:

Brigadier General
Major General
Lieutenant General
General
Field Marshal

(not sure of the order for the lesser generals)

	22-02-2005 04:34									#49
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That's correct, e.g. for the US army it's:

Brigadier General
Major General
Lieutenant General
General
General of the Army (only in times of war)

The European equivalent for the General of the Army being the Field Marshal. The first General of the Army was Eisenhower, the title was established so that he wouldn't be outranked by the Allied Field Marshals (mainly Montgomery).

Nothing stops us from using our own General level ranks, though, for instance:

Lieutenant General
Major General
Colonel General
General
General of the Federation

(Note that all General level officers are referred to as "Generals" unless a distinction between generals is needed; the same goes for Lieutenant Colonels, who are Colonels unless there's an actual Colonel around. Therefore Lieutenant General Maniac would be General Maniac in common Spartan lingo.)

And for the admiralty:

Commander-Admiral
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Admiral of the Federation

	22-02-2005 04:39									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Uh, yes, because actually the University AI pulled it off and we are covering for them because it would be awfully embarrassing for us that our computerixed pactmate would pull something like that off while we twiddle our thumbs, not knowing what to do about the Morganites.

No but think about it, humor me at least. For all the Morgans know, Morgan Industries might still be standing! They have no in-game confirmation of its destruction, all they have is a claim from us.

Let me ask you this, if the Gaians announced tomorrow that they had captured Sparta Command, would you believe them? I would at the least be extremely sceptical. The Morgans defended MI intensely. We knocked out, as I recall, 8 units - and obliterated a base. All they saw coming at them were 4 impact rovers. If I were a Morgan, I would be sceptical, and would even be conjuring wild conspiracy theories as to why we would fake something like this, just as I would be now if the Gaians announced the invasion of Sparta Command.

So don't you think there is at least a debate in Morgania whether or not this claim is true?

	22-02-2005 04:40									#51
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I agree with Kassi (below - edited later after his post) - while it might be cute for a week until Morgan opens their turn, we have nothing to gain long term from the attempt at deception - plus, Morgan has the Uni infiltrated and will know they're not capable of it

Last edited by Googlie on 22-02-2005 at 04:50

	22-02-2005 04:42									#52
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Ah, but why would we make such a claim? It would be disproven in a heartbeat the moment the Morganites find out. Why on earth would we try something like that? It makes no sense. The fact that we did it will only damage our foreign relations to boot, the only gain to be made was not the fact that we did it, but its results, which can't be faked or lied about. They simply are.

	22-02-2005 04:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Ah, but why would we make such a claim? It would be disproven in a heartbeat the moment the Morganites find out. Why on earth would we try something like that? It makes no sense. The fact that we did it will only damage our foreign relations to boot, the only gain to be made was not the fact that we did it, but its results, which can't be faked or lied about. They simply are.

We have no reason to do it whatsoever!
But can the Morgans be that sure that we have no reason? I don't think they can. If the Gaians and Angels were in on the conspiracy with us, this might be a cool ploy to distract and panic them for a week. There are surely other conspiracy theories out there too, probably much better than mine.

The Morgans must be sure that we have no concievable reason to pull of a stunt like this, in order to be able to accept our statement as fact, and in my opinion they don't have the information to do that.

Of course, they might make an educated guess that we are probably not faking, but there must be room for debate in Morgania. Like I said, would you believe the Gaians if they claimed to have captured Sparta Command?

	22-02-2005 04:51									#54
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here are the comparitive ranks (from the Nato website):

Attachment: ranks.jpg
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	22-02-2005 04:54									#55
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Snoddasmannen, you are missing the obvious point: they knew it was Spartan units near their shores. Admitting to an amphibious strike should be enough for them to completely believe this. I mean, they did put Formers and unarmed Probes i our way, so we know they were not entirely sure they could stop us.

	22-02-2005 05:00									#56
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quote: Like I said, would you believe the Gaians if they claimed to have captured Sparta Command?

Have we just had failed peace negotiations with the Gaians? Are the Gaians pissed off at us and out for our blood? Are the Gaians militaristic? Do they have the capability to pull of such an attack? Have we observed Gaian ships or other units move about suspiciously near our coasts?

It's all a matter of context. In the current context, my firm belief is that the Morganites are confident that we have erased Morgan Industries off the Planet, and are more concentrated on:

1) Whose fault is it that we ended up losing the PTS and our headquarter base
2) What can we do about our current social engineering disaster, what can we do to rebuild and recover
3) How can we take the fight back at the Spartans.

I am of course assuming that they are rational beings, capable of distancing themselves from the situation and judging it carefully. They may not be able to do that right now, who knows.

	22-02-2005 05:02									#57
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But Modo, we might have decided to abort the attack but then attempt to pull of this elaborate hoax for whatever reason. We know there is no reason, no conspiracy, but they can't.

I believe they thought Morgan Industries was safe btw. Placing units in the fungus was to reduce damage via shore landings, not to stop an attack on MI. If they were unsure of the safety of their capital they would have moved their plasma rover there instead of out to the fungus where it did nothing to prevent the attack.

	22-02-2005 05:03									#58
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Unfortunately, I guess this debate won't be resolved until months from now when the game ends and the private forums are opened

	22-02-2005 05:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia It's all a matter of context. In the current context, my firm belief is that the Morganites are confident that we have erased Morgan Industries off the Planet, and are more concentrated on:

Well you are probably right. But I definitely want to believe that there was room for a discussion on this issue at some point in the Morgan camp, we will see after the game I guess

EDIT: I don't mean to sound too violently convinced about my point here, I just love to theorize about these things I'm off to bed now, been a looong day.

	22-02-2005 06:51									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 A simple question, Drogue. Is the obliteration of a base reason enough to give out extensions? Because I have a feeling all other factions will want them now...

Something unexpected in the turn that reasonably requires extra time will be granted an extension. Only normal activites are prohibited. For instance, because the Gaian's were first, they may need an extension to deal with their response, but the others would already have had time to formulate a response, so unless new information is there, they wouldn't get an extension.

Extensions are given because they're needed, reasonably.