11-01-2005 08:40									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Actually science demands EVIDENCE. There is plenty of it for design.

Please enumerate.

	11-01-2005 08:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Sucj fear among great minds...

The fear comes from the religious who keep trying to force their dogma on everyone else. It is the religious who run from science classes and retreat into "home schooling" because the evil leftist majority dares to keep religion out of schools. Besides, the psycho right wouldn't want their children in a state school since in addition to real education they might run into a dangerous black person or something.

Heaven forbid children should learn about the real world instead of just the religious or political views of their parents.

	11-01-2005 09:06									#63
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Please note in the article that it's the creationists who want to "opt-out" of science class, presumably out of some kind of fear of evolution -- I don't see how any creationist in this thread with a shred of integrity could claim that it's the non-creationists who are "fearful."

The teachers are refusing to read the disclaimer out of professional integrity, not out of fear of the almighty or fear of being lynched by an angry pack of scientists or some such nonsense.

	11-01-2005 09:13									#64
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Please note in the article that it's the creationists who want to "opt-out" of science class, presumably out of some kind of fear of evolution...

Where do you read that?

	11-01-2005 09:13									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Maybe we should push for a law that requires microbiology to be discussed in all bible study courses?

	11-01-2005 09:45									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Maybe we should push for a law that requires microbiology to be discussed in all bible study courses?

I'll go you one better: we should push for a law that requires any religious school that receives any public funding (which is 99% of them) to teach evolution.

	11-01-2005 10:32									#67
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Some people believe that the pyramids were built by aliens. So, to placate these mouthbreathers, we should have history teachers read a disclaimer to their students to such an effect.

That makes just as much sense as this ID garbage being presented in a science course.

	11-01-2005 11:26									#68
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Ummm...I don't know if I'm infringing on the debate, but...

The arguement of "Intelligent Design" apparently dictates that some form of INTELLEGENCE created us.

Can I ask where THAT intelligence came from? Because, after all...humans are intelligent. That means, of course, if you follow ID, OUR intelligence was created by ANOTHER'S intelligence. But for that to happen, according to ID, the intelligence that created the human intelligence would have to have been created by ANOTHER intelligence.

So where exactly did that first INTELLIGENCE come from?

	11-01-2005 11:39									#69
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I've seen rankings that place US students near the bottom of developed nations for math and physics. Anyone got any idea where we stand in biology?

	11-01-2005 12:24									#70
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Ummm...I don't know if I'm infringing on the debate, but... The arguement of "Intelligent Design" apparently dictates that some form of INTELLEGENCE created us. Can I ask where THAT intelligence came from? Because, after all...humans are intelligent. That means, of course, if you follow ID, OUR intelligence was created by ANOTHER'S intelligence. But for that to happen, according to ID, the intelligence that created the human intelligence would have to have been created by ANOTHER intelligence. So where exactly did that first INTELLIGENCE come from?

There is one theory, that we (humans and other intelligent life) create it, and than it, being god, creates us.

That is a possibility (and some variant of this idea is common to SciFi). There are many others.

Jon Miller

	11-01-2005 12:54									#71
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Ummm...I don't know if I'm infringing on the debate, but... The arguement of "Intelligent Design" apparently dictates that some form of INTELLEGENCE created us. Can I ask where THAT intelligence came from? Because, after all...humans are intelligent. That means, of course, if you follow ID, OUR intelligence was created by ANOTHER'S intelligence. But for that to happen, according to ID, the intelligence that created the human intelligence would have to have been created by ANOTHER intelligence. So where exactly did that first INTELLIGENCE come from?

"Ah, Sahib, after that it is turtles, all the way down..."

	11-01-2005 16:34									#72
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quote: So where exactly did that first INTELLIGENCE come from?

That's easy, it was made by the first idiot

	11-01-2005 16:40									#73
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs That's easy, it was made by the first idiot

God's mummy and daddy, and they had god brought to them by the holy flying banana, who was designed by a not terribly intelligent designer who didn't appreciate the un-aeronautical aspects of holy flying bananas, which accounts for why it took such a long time for the universe to get anywhere.


And don't ask where god's mummy and daddy came from, just take it on faith.

	11-01-2005 17:01									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse But science and the sciencific method is not very good at the "why" or "who" questions. They belong to other disciplines.

Philosophy.

	11-01-2005 18:01									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Where do you read that?

Edit: My mistake, the article was a bit ambiguous as to who was opting out of what.

	11-01-2005 18:16									#76
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Science should not be taught as dogma, but then, that's why it's not taught in citizenship lessons.

Creationism should be taught in my opinion, but as part of Christian/semitic studies in religious education, it should not be taught as scientific fact. Evolution after all is not taught in religious studies.

quote: The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion...

ID is easily refuted by Russells take on PSR which unfortunately many pro-ID scientists are unaware of.

Evolution
Creationism
Religious dogma

	11-01-2005 18:19									#77
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@ loinburger: Okay, for a second there I thought you were referring to the teachers.

quote: I'll go you one better: we should push for a law that requires any religious school that receives any public funding (which is 99% of them) to teach evolution.

Yeah, that's a much better idea. In fact, I think we should do just that.

	11-01-2005 18:22									#78
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quote: Yeah, that's a much better idea. In fact, I think we should do just that.

Agreed

	11-01-2005 18:27									#79
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Ummm...I don't know if I'm infringing on the debate, but... The arguement of "Intelligent Design" apparently dictates that some form of INTELLEGENCE created us. Can I ask where THAT intelligence came from? Because, after all...humans are intelligent. That means, of course, if you follow ID, OUR intelligence was created by ANOTHER'S intelligence. But for that to happen, according to ID, the intelligence that created the human intelligence would have to have been created by ANOTHER intelligence. So where exactly did that first INTELLIGENCE come from?

That's the problem of all theories of life & the universe, including evolution and the big bang, ect... the only answers are either "nobody knows" or "it came to existance out of nothing", which isn't a very satisfactory answer.

	11-01-2005 18:30									#80
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Ludd; that's precisely where philosophy is useful and one needn't invoke God to answer it. Subjective existentialism, and evolution provides the nuts and bolts .

	11-01-2005 18:30									#81
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Can I ask where THAT intelligence came from? Because, after all...humans are intelligent. That means, of course, if you follow ID, OUR intelligence was created by ANOTHER'S intelligence. But for that to happen, according to ID, the intelligence that created the human intelligence would have to have been created by ANOTHER intelligence.

Well, that is where god comes in. The term "god" automatically refers to an intelligence that does not require a creator.

The fact is that evolution has a similar problem. No matter how far back you go, at some point you have to say that "nothing" led to "something". This completely violates the law of conservation of energy. True nothingness by definition is nothing and therefore cannot produce anything.

So pick your poison: either the universe resulted from nothingness which is completely impossible accodring to the laws of nature or the universe was created by an intelligence that did not require a creator.

	11-01-2005 18:30									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Aliens. or Gods.

Suitably powerful aliens would be indistinguishable from God anyway.

	11-01-2005 18:31									#83
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What's scientific about evolution, that puts it "beyond" creationism? Evolution isn't really about microbiology, molecular structure or any sort of "hard" science - it's about the interaction of life forms with each other and their environment.

	11-01-2005 18:33									#84
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quote: Well, that is where god comes in. The term "god" automatically refers to an intelligence that does not require a creator.

In this sense (the cosmological argument) it is absurd because it begs the question of a creator. In otherwords god's creator.

Russell answers this by saying that a cause is not necessary to the context of the conclusion, though of course science seeks to be categorically objective so that's insufficient, but in respect of the universe it holds. Modern theories of the big bang hold that at time=0, nothing was only nothing by our definition and by others it needn't have been.

The choice you offer at the end is rather simplistic and quite useless imo.

	11-01-2005 18:34									#85
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quote: What's scientific about evolution, that puts it "beyond" creationism? Evolution isn't really about microbiology, molecular structure or any sort of "hard" science - it's about the interaction of life forms with each other and their environment.

Well what is scientific? It's a whole question irrelevant to the discussion. Evolution is a theory with more and better evidence behind it, which science tags along with for scientific method is best represented by it, and creationism is a theory purported by Semitic religions, hence the perceived conflict.

	11-01-2005 18:38									#86
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We haven't observed creationism in action.

We have observed evolution.

I'm not disputing the fact that evolution can fit into place of loose interpretations of the bible or that it still fails to answer ALL of the questions OR that creation might be correct. However ID doesn't fit in with evolution nor do literal interpretations of the bible, and I've yet to find any reason to believe creationism isn't anything other than pseudo-scientific BS.

	11-01-2005 18:45									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly I'll go you one better: we should push for a law that requires any religious school that receives any public funding (which is 99% of them) to teach evolution.

Excellent.

Return fire!

-Arrian

	11-01-2005 19:05									#88
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quote: What's scientific about evolution, that puts it "beyond" creationism? Evolution isn't really about microbiology, molecular structure or any sort of "hard" science - it's about the interaction of life forms with each other and their environment.

The difference is that a Scientific theory is different to an everyday theory, it's not that a scientific theory is just an idea that a bloke had in a bar one night. scientific theories are damn close to being proved, in fact if you are looking at successful theories there are other big everyday theories that are not proven, how about the theory of gravity.

If you are going to insist on a half baked idea like ID (It isn't a theory, find the merest shred of proof beyond wishful thinking and I may acknowledge an upgrade in its status) then I think you should also insist on alternate biblical explainations for all science being taught in classrooms

For example

Theory of Gravity

Ezekiel 33:10
"Son of man, say to the house of Israel, 'This is what you are saying: "Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?" '


Theory of Reletivity

Light moves at 186,000 miles an hour but only after 4400 BC when god said let there be light

And please no Google for it replies, If you want us to believe you then present an argument .

	11-01-2005 19:09									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Theben We haven't observed creationism in action. We have observed evolution.

When, where (other than micro-organisms)?

	11-01-2005 19:10									#90
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the_ceebs: Agreed mostly, it's just the difference between science and absolute faith is that science accepts theories contingently, that is until something better comes along, in order to avoid some psychological attachment to ones ideas, like faith, latterly where people seem to stick by the same tired idea despite superior reasoning to the contrary. Dealing with this on my "why I am not a christian" thread. This is what we mean by scientific proof, but that doesn't invalidate it, it makes it stronger by "plugging it in" as it were to reason, instead of being subject to its opposition.