05-02-2005 12:34									#31
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Cavebear, are you willing to play some turns with Monk's save?

How about you atawa?

Are you still with us Erika or are you too busy with those splendid units you are posting in the scenario forum?

RJM at Sleeper's

	07-02-2005 05:51									#32
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From Monk's 1912 file, I've gone ahead as best I can.

1912 - Start Engineers on Roads and RR. Fortify some units and place others for defense or attack. Move some Transports around for possible use. Provoke Egypt to declare war and take Memphis with no loss. Get 21G and take Guerilla Warfare.

1913 - Zulus build 9 SS units. Then they sneak attack. They attack Pi-Rameses and Ingome (and some few other civ cities). Vikings build 2 SS units. Celts contact us and demand 700G in tribute and I refuse (we only have 381G anyway). They warn us of our "insolence". Our cease-fire with the Celts has expired.

Uncertain about defending Pi-Rameses, but eventually decide to defend it. Move Howitzer from Memphis to attack a stack of Zulu units (kill 4) and 2nd Memphis Howitzer destroys Zulu Howitzer. Memphis Armor destoys Zulu Marine unit. Rush city Walls there. Giza Armor destroys Zulu Marine unit near city. Kill Partisans blocking road near Hlobane.

Ngome is another problem. I could give it up and sell SAM for cash, but there are some ways to defend it so I do. I reinforce Ngome with 2 Armor by transport from Intombe. Arrange peace with Celts.

1914 - Celts get Environmentalism. Zulu attack Ngome with 3 Stealth Bombers. They also nuke Thebes and take it with a Paratrooper. That means we lose SETI.

I lose track of a year at this point, sorry. The next few years could be off by one.

1915 - Persians get Advanced Flight. We retake Thebes with Howitzers, get 228G and Environmentalism. Celts are still at war with Zulus and that seems good to me.

1916 - Sioux request war with Celts. I consider it, but turn it down. They only offerred 50G and it wasn't a good thing for us anyway. Zulu build 2 SS units and destroy one of our Transports. Vikings build 1 SS unit. I arrange peace with Persians, demand tribute for our patience, and get 250G! I move some new units toward warfront cities. I"m building some Mech Infantry units for defense along with the Howitzers, Armor, and Spies. Starting a couple of Stealth Fighters around now, too.

1917 - Zulu build 4 SS units. Zulu attack Intombe by ship and lose ship to Coastal Defense. I rush some Howitzers and Mech Infantry.

1918 - Zulu and Vikings sign peace treaty. Our caspital is moved to Cedar Creek. I rush a SAM at Thebes. Those Zulu Stealth Bombers are really causing problems! Moving new units toward Thebes. Get peace with Egyptians.

1919 - Celts and Zulus at peace. Zuluas build 3 SS units. Zulus and Celts at war again (yes!). Zulu Stealth Bombers empty Intombe of defenders. Our spies investigate Mpondo (3 Cruise missiles, 1 Mech Infantry, 2 Riflemen, 1 Stealth Bonber, 1 Stealth Fighter, and 1 Transport). Less serious defense than I would have thought. Mpondo has City Walls, of course.

1920 - Celts learn Fusion Power. Zulu build 2 SS units. Zulu bonb us in several places with Stealth Bombers. Vikings build 2 SS units. Intombe builts SAM. Rush Fanatic in Intombe so there is a defender after next strike. Kill Zulu Marine unit waiting to take Intombe. Move Alpine unit into into Intombe from Zimbabwe.

We finally have Stealth Fighters! Shoot down Zulu Stealth Bomber with Stealth Fighter from Apolotonia and it lands safely in Intombe. YES! 2nd Stealth Fighter engages ZULU Stealth Bomber at Memphis and kills it, and gets Vet status. (YES, YES!). Rush SAM for Cedar Creek. Rush Barracks in Thebes. Move Partisans around (wow, never realized I could move partisans, but then I've never had any before).

-------------------

All 3 cities in Zululand have SDI and SAM, and there is a Stealth Fighter available.

And we have moved swiftly up the powergraph..

Attachment: 1920powergraph.jpg
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	07-02-2005 05:52									#33
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Here is my 1920 save...

Attachment: ap_a1920cb.sav
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	07-02-2005 12:52									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've down loaded your save, but I won't look at it until I've also played through to 1920. I probably shouldn't have read your log, but it's too late for that now. I'll probably post my 1920 save tomorrow.

Is anyone else going to join us?

RJM at Sleeper's

	08-02-2005 12:13									#35
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I will try to get to my game computer and post a 1920 save, but it probably will not be until next weekend. I think I have played that far ahead before I "went on break."

Nice work cavebear. I am glad someone has continued the game. There is much to learn from this game position. If rjm posts another save, I think we will have some interesting points to discuss.

Monk

	08-02-2005 12:43									#36
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Here is my log and save.

1912
I stop researching and start celebrating. I establish an embassy with the Vikings and sign a peace treaty with them and with the Persians and Egyptians. I change the builds to suit my style of play. Zulus attack and take Ngome. I accept 3,400 for peace treaty. Egyptians attack - no idea why!

1913
14 cities celebrate I capture Memphis - more out of spite than anything else. I subvert Ngome for 3600 and get back 300, so it was paid for by the money for the peace treaty. I give the Celts superconductor.

1914
Peace holds with everybody. Uranium: Kildeer - Ulundi (875). Ask Zulus for tribute and they declare war. Capture El Armana (123 gold), Byblos (451) and Mpondo (351) and then accept peace treaty.

1915
Again all treaties hold! Try to get rid of Egyptians near Memphis, but they declare war. I capture Heliopolis and then accept peace. Ask for tribute from Zulus who declare war. Eliminate all Zulu units around Pi Rameses, etc. Capture Ulundi for 521, then accept peace treaty.

1916
Sneak attack by the Egyptians who capture Heliopolis. Persians refuse tribute and declare war. Their allies (the Celts) also declare war. I bribe Sidon and then nuke Abergeveny. I sign peace treaty with Persians, but Celts won't talk.

1917
I lose some units to the Celts and the Zulus sneak attack. I capture Swazi (1300) and then sign peace treaty. Celts still won't talk.

1918
Celts nuke Sidon and then agree to cease fire. Zulus sneak attack as do Egyptians. We capture Tuegela (1800). This gives us Newtons and Hoover.

1919
Zulus sneak attack and we lose Tuegela and Swazi. Agree peace treaty

1920
Treaties hold! I rescue a small task force that was stranded near Tuegela and then save.


Although I have secured the position on our main territory south of Apolytonia, I overstretched myself in capturing Swazi and Tuegela. The main problem however is strategic. I think that our fastest win from here will be to build the spaceship, but I haven't done very much to move that forward. I suspect we will have to capture the Zulu capital at least once more, so my plan would be:
- have a strong task force ready to capture Rouen
- reinforce Ngome to hold up Zulu land attacks
- maintain cease fire against Celts and Persians
- build spaceship parts like there's no tomorrow in the south.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS I forgot to mention that I changed the site of our new capital. At the time, Monk's choice seemed a bit too close to the action, but as it transpired it would have been fine. You win some, you lose some.

Attachment: ap_a1920rjm.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 08-02-2005 at 13:12

	09-02-2005 04:26									#37
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Excellent work RJM! Your 1920 position has us in better shape than mine in almost all respects (I like mine having some stealth fighters). I didn't even think to try celebrating, you definitely have us in a better position on our mainland, and you have more Zulu cities, and more gold.

I look forward to seeing Monk's 1920 position if he gets a chance to play forward.

	09-02-2005 11:21									#38
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear (I like mine having some stealth fighters).

I'm not a great fan of air power, so I switched production to howies. I never bother with stealth technology in my regular games, so I don't know how to use it. Similarly, I don't build naval units - a weakness when it comes to some games.

quote: Originally posted by cavebear I didn't even think to try celebrating.

The idea of a celebrating fundamentalist regime comes from Scouse Gits. I replaid the first couple of years yesterday and by increasing the luxury rate to 30% for the first year and then dropping it again, a couple more cities will celebrate.

quote: Originally posted by cavebear I look forward to seeing Monk's 1920 position if he gets a chance to play forward.

I hope Monk is able to play - if he does, I suspect his save will be better than both of ours put together - or something like that.

RJM at Sleeper's

	09-02-2005 12:03									#39
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@rjm,

Nice turns!! And I like your strategic ideas/suggestions for future action. Responding a bit to the discussion...

Stealth Fighters--Build an airport, build Stealth Fighters, which thanks to the airport, come out Vets. They are good for reconn, are great attack units, and pay off handsomely when they scramble -v- Bombers.

Celebrating--YES!! I had this in mind as soon as I saw Cure for Cancer in Zimbabwe. Then I forgot to make the adjustment for several turns after taking Zim. I really need to remember to write things down better. A lot falls thru the cracks if you have a 3-4 day gap in your play schedule and then only play for a few minutes.

I am not sure how my effort compares but I seem to remember being both more aggressive and more peaceful at the same time. What I mean is, I tried to switch off attacks between continents and Civs so that before the turn finished I moved pieces around to induce the AI's that I earlier had bonked to ask for peace. Ending with peace increases the chances of avoiding a sneak attack, more or less.

Monk

	10-02-2005 12:08									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Stealth Fighters--Build an airport, build Stealth Fighters, which thanks to the airport, come out Vets. They are good for reconn, are great attack units, and pay off handsomely when they scramble -v- Bombers. Monk

I wondered why you were building airports. I switched them to something else - a temple in one case and I think a palace in the other. I didn't build any stealth fighters either, so at least I was consistent.

I haven't actually seen anyone using bombers in this game so far - perhaps a treat in store, but I wonder if they have somehow been bypassed because the AI prefers to build some other unit.

RJM at Sleeper's

	12-02-2005 22:59									#41
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Would it be wrong of me to replay the turns to 1920 using celebration? It would completely change the conditions, and there weren't any AI surprises during those years.

Just asking opinions...

	13-02-2005 01:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Would it be wrong of me to replay the turns to 1920 using celebration? It would completely change the conditions, and there weren't any AI surprises during those years. Just asking opinions...

FWIW...I see nothing wrong in your replaying the turns. It will be a wonderful learning experience. Same goes for rjm if he wants, or anyone else. Call it a "mulligan" like in golf; but let's mine this opportunity for all its worth. Of course, we would then expect some commentary on what was learned so that everone gains. If you like the result better, then post it with a cb2, for example.

Some things to think about (this is my opinion only and please take no offense if this is common knowledge) in a replay:

1) Celebrate from the end of 1912 turn. Experiment with Lux setting to see how to get the most cities celebrating, then consider that you will then lower the setting next turn (after cities start celebrating it takes fewer Lux to keep them celebrating). Therefore, don't use 60% if 40% will cover most of the cities after you lower the setting to 20%. You may need to move a workerto an "arrow" tile for one turn. Set the remainder to Taxes and remember that zero Science setting needs one Scientist to get a new choice upon discovery.
2) Stealth Fighters (see previous comment a few posts back) have another very valuable function. To keep from sprouting Partisans, one needs to cover all the city area with your units before entering the empty city. Stealth Fighters are especially versatile in covering trees, mountains, etc. Airports not only make for Vet Air units but they also let you quickly resupply from the rear.
3) Howitzers are especially nice in attacking walled cities because they don't reduce population when they kill garrison units. But they don't defend (when the AI counter attacks) any better than an Archer. Think about Mech Infants as part of your build queue. Simarily, Engineers for roads and Spies for investigating cities (or planting nukes and clearing the skulls) should be included.
4) Tora, Tora, Tora: Plan ahead so that you can take as many cities per turn as possible but leave yourself in a defensible postion. Especially remember to approach one last city to get the AI to beg for ceasefire and then suggest peace. Decline whatever they demand, they will usually take the offered peace anyway. Also, don't leave excess units in cities but park them in Forts in case you get nuked or bribed.
5) Don't forget to sell unneeded Improvements. Not only is it extra cash but it pares back the annual maintenance costs.

That is most of my secrets/observations of things that might be useful in a replay. On another note, my friend who knows enough about Civ to help me visualize the map, etc is probably not coming this weekend afterall, so I won't be posting anything soon. If you fellows want to continue on from 1920, please do not hold things up on my account.

Monk (looking forward to cb's revised effort)

	13-02-2005 12:13									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk FWIW...I see nothing wrong in your replaying the turns. It will be a wonderful learning experience. Same goes for rjm if he wants, or anyone else. Call it a "mulligan" like in golf; but let's mine this opportunity for all its worth. Of course, we would then expect some commentary on what was learned so that everone gains. If you like the result better, then post it with a cb2, for example. Some things to think about (this is my opinion only and please take no offense if this is common knowledge) in a replay: 1) Celebrate from the end of 1912 turn. Experiment with Lux setting to see how to get the most cities celebrating, then consider that you will then lower the setting next turn (after cities start celebrating it takes fewer Lux to keep them celebrating). Therefore, don't use 60% if 40% will cover most of the cities after you lower the setting to 20%. You may need to move a workerto an "arrow" tile for one turn. Set the remainder to Taxes and remember that zero Science setting needs one Scientist to get a new choice upon discovery. Monk (looking forward to cb's revised effort)

Cavebear - my impression is that you won't need to take the luxury rate above 30% in the first year and that you can bring it back to 20% in the following years. I seem to remember that some cities only celebrated or maintained their celebration by moving workers away from forest and mines and putting them on ocean tiles. It's a judgement call whether the loss of production is compensated by the increased tax revenue.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with any scientists or research. I don't think there are any techs remaining that we need, and if there are, we can pick them up next time we capture a city.

I don't think I'll replay, although it might be interesting to try using airports and stealth fighters - I rarely build either of them in a game. Don't a couple of loaded transports get you more units more quickly than the one at a time airport?

RJM at Sleeper's

	22-02-2005 06:03									#44
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1912 - Celebrate Lux 30. Investigate Mpondo with Spies. Send one to take down CW, fails. 2nd Spy is successful. Armor takes Mpondo, 250G. Bring units into Rhayader and fortify. Group units to attack Memphis.

1913 - Zulu build 6 SS units. Large attacks on Pi-Rameses and Ngome. Vikings build 2 SS units. Egyptians declare war. 17 of our cities celebrate. Take Memphis 20G and Guerilla Warfare. Take Alexandria, 11G and Engineering. Uranium Caravan to Heliopolis 187G. Decide to sell all Libraries; up to 730G. Celt cease-fire has expired. Can’t get defense units to Ngome, so sell some infrastructure for 200G. Rush 3 Stealth Fighters.

1914 - Celts overthrown. Sneak attack by Celts at Dinas Emirys and Rhyadar. Zulu build 4 SS units. Zulus capture Ngome, 16G. Zukus fail to take Pi-Ramases and we gain 3000G at cease-fire! Refuse terms and get another 3000G! ROTFLMAO!

UN forces peace between Zulu and Vikings. Vikings and Celts declare war. Evidently, the Ais consider us too weak to unite against us. Ruch Coastal Fort in Mpondo and CW in Memphis.

1915 - Celts get Environmentalism. Celts become Republic and take Dimas Emirys. Celt emmissary demands we make war on Zulus; I refuse (I should have accepted). But we get cease-fire with Celts. Rush Airport at Point-of-Rock for 262G. I intend SDI and SAM in all cities. Rush Intombe SAM for 128G. Transport 3 Spies to Mpondo. Capture Heliopolis, ?G and Invention. Destroy Egyptians. Rush Mech Inf in Ginza, 115 G. Rush SAM in Pi-Ramases 198G. Rush SAM in Thebes, 146G. Rush CW in Heliopolis 320G. Rush SAM in Alexandria 194G.

1916 - Sioux offer 50G and Wheel for us to fight Zulu. Since I want to fight Zuku now, I acept. Zulu nuke Thebes and fail. Zulu capture Intombe with Paratroops (Hadn’t expected that). Zulu nuke Pi-Ramases and fail. Zulu Paradrop on Pi-Ramases and take it (I hate Paratroops). I re-take Pi-Rameses with Howitzer, 38G and Environmentalism. Rush SAM in Pi-Rameses. Howitzer at Pi-Rameses kills 2 units outside city, 2nd kills 2 more. Stealth Fighter enters Pi-Rameses. Over-extend 1 How to kill an oncoming one, but put Spy on it for protection. Rush Mech Inf at Llanelli for 115G.

1917 - Memphis Stealth Fighters defend city. Mpondo Coastal Fort defends against Sub. Hblane shoots down Stealth Bomber. Rush CW at Ghulaman. Rush Coastal Fort at Heliopolis. At Pi-Rameses, How kills Marine and gets Vet, kills Marine and 2nd ubit. How kills Marine an 2nd unit. How kills Marine and 2nd unit. How kills How. We re-capture Ngome, 336G and Refrigeration. Rush Mech Inf for 450G. Rush Mech Inf at Mpondo for 136G. Take Intombe ?G and Automobile; rush CW 320G. Rush Mech Inf Zimbabwe ?G.

1918 - Rush Barracks in Ngome. Rush SAM in Intombe. Rush Stealth Fighter in Apolytonia. Rush Mech Inf at Pi-Ramases.

1919 - Rush Airport at 3 Special. Rush SAM at Heliopolis. Move Hows and Armor to Pi-Rameses. Rush SDI in Elephantine. Rush Coastal Fort in Ngome.

1920 - Zulu Paradrop at Memphis and take it + 48G. I accept ceace-fire to avoid further attacks. Rush Coastal Fort in Hlobane. Rush Coastal Fort in Zimbabwe.

Oferred for consideration...

Attachment: ap_a1920.cb2sav.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	22-02-2005 10:30									#45
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I'll look at the save during the day and post some comments tomorrow. I assume that the non-standard name (ie including a dot before the extension) will either load diectly or at worse will load after changing the name. I like the amount you managed to get from the Zulus for a peace treaty

RJM at Sleeper's

	23-02-2005 12:52									#46
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Cavebear, once again your save is stronger than mine as far as air power is concerned - stealth aircraft and paras. However, your position seems less secure in the main theatres of war.

I'm not sure why you have continued researching. I don't think we will gain any benefit from discovering future technology.

quote: Originally posted by cavebear 1916 - Sioux offer 50G and Wheel for us to fight Zulu. Since I want to fight Zuku now, I acept.

The issue that we need to discuss is reputation. My memory is that we voted at the start to maintain a spotless reputation, and yours has dropped to honerable. I think that there was some subsequent discussion of reputation, but I can't remember the result. I'd certainly continue to vote for a spotless reputation and I believe the game can be won that way. The deal with the Sioux was probably the cause of the reputation hit.

Another thing worth discussing is the fate of the Egyptians.

quote: Originally posted by cavebear 1915 - Capture Heliopolis, ?G and Invention. Destroy Egyptians.

From previous experience, I think this means that if we capture the Viking or Zulu capitals, their empire will split. We might use this to weaken them, but it is an obstacle if we need to bring down a space ship. I wonder whether it's worth keeping the Egyptians with a single city.

The silence from Monk suggests that he has not been able to play any turns. This is a pity since I suspect he would be able to teach us both a lesson or two.

RJM at Sleeper's

	24-02-2005 18:36									#47
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Continuing to research was an error that occurred during play. When I started celebrating, I immediately switched research to 0, but when I later played around with the tax settings seeking the best balance of luxury and taxes, I must have left the settings wrong. I sure could have used the couple thousand G that cost me!

I thought (incorrectly) that accepting an invitation to join another Civ in war wouldn't harm our reputation. I didn't notice the change when it happened.

For that reason, at least, we should not use my save.

I think we can wait a bit to see if Monk has chance to play.

	25-02-2005 10:46									#48
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I think we can wait a bit to see if Monk has chance to play.

There is no rush - we have been playing this game for quite a long while already.

Not much has been heard from Monk recently. I think in his last post he mentioned that the friend who helped him play had to cancel a visit. Let's hope he will be able to join in again soon.

RJM at Sleeper's

	27-02-2005 06:16									#49
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I'm pleased to give it through next weekend for Monk to get a chance to offer his own turns. I value both of your skills at playing, and I'm willing to wait. I might even take a shot at playig it again correcting my tax rates (an error that thoroughly annoys me).

	27-02-2005 10:42									#50
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Good luck with the game if you try a replay.

If we haven't heard anything from Monk by next weekend, we can decide how to move forward. Of course someone else may also join in by then

RJM at Sleeper's

	05-03-2005 03:59									#51
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No, on further thought, there is a limit to replay even in this game.

	05-03-2005 11:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear No, on further thought, there is a limit to replay even in this game.

OK - so shall we play some more turns from my 1920 save? Up to 1930?

RJM at Sleeper's

	09-03-2005 06:38									#53
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I think we should start playing again, and your 1920 save is the best one to use. I won't be able to do anything until the weekend though.

	09-03-2005 12:46									#54
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I've posted my attempt on a separate thread in case you don't want to look at it before your try.

RJM at Sleeper's

	10-03-2005 07:33									#55
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Good idea, RJM! This way other people can see what you did and I can easily not see it.

I will try to play Friday night and/or Sat morning. I can't wait to post and compare. This is actually becoming a very interesting way to play the game! I'm glad we stumbled into it, even if through desperation...

And it would be more interesting if some other players tried their hand at playing from your save (as our current best) to 1930.