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ok, i think it's time to move this where it belongs, in the Alternative Civs section
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quinns
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Alright Mark G. Thanks. Sorry to post it in the wrong forum to begin with, but it spun off from a thread started there, so there you have it. In any case, we have a good start with this game.
It sounds like Roman has thought about this in depth already! And Wittlich, I wish we could use hexes throughout the entire spherical model. But it is those "fudge" factors, that you mention, that cause unreasonable gamer deployment of certain regions of the map.
Personally, I don't like the "point" movement spherical coordinate system, even though I think that graphically and visually, it much more accurately depicts a real sphere. I believe this point movement system creates way too much micro management of everything. (By the way, I think you meant spherical, not polar. Polar coordinates [angle and radius] represent points in two dimensions where spherical [theta angle, phi angle, and radius] represent points in three dimensions like latitude and longitude with the radius always being the radius of the earth.)
The reason for wanting to stay with the Buckminster Fuller (bucky ball or soccer ball) spherical representation, is because it allows discrete regions to be able to apply regional properties more simply. I haven't really thought it out, but point movement seems kind of like "Warcraft" and "Red Alert". Though, those are great games, I would instead like to create more of a strategic game than a tactical one.
Chess and Go use discrete squares, with just a few different types of pieces, yet both games still offer infinitely complex strategies. I would rather stay with discrete regions (hexagons and pentagons) in this game, and create a game that enjoyably (and accurately within reason) simulates mankind's true expansion from the Stone Age to the Stars. While at the same time creating a fun and challenging human-against-human, (and human-against-artificial-intelligence), true strategy game.
And yes, there would always be 52 regions, (I think that comes out to 60 vertices, like you said Roman), on all the spheres represented in this game engine, no matter how large or small. The size of the sphere respresented is dictated by the length of the struts. All the struts (or seams of a soccer ball) are exactly the same distance in a single bucky ball. That is one of the reasons this makes for a great model. Two adjacent regions always have exactly the same length "front" between them on a bucky ball. Hexes have the exact same "frontage" quality also, but they cannot be accuarately twisted into a sphere... hence the use of the "bucky ball". This distinction becomes quite apparent as compared with the "square" tile system, where diagonally adjacent squares have a ZERO length frontage between them, which is not very realistic.
Yes, when the Bucky Ball is laid out flat there are some gaps between the hexagons and pentagons, but the computer handles all of this wrapping for the player. And it wraps PERFECTLY with a bucky ball model. It might not even be necessary to lay the ball out flat. If we could get a little fancy, we could have the user discretely rotate the bucky ball sphere to the desired region in order to view statistics, make adjustments, and relocate units within that hexagon or pentagon region.
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no problem quinns
if you guys want my opinion, i would tell you to support the existing projects. only this way we can have more hope that we will see some good (and finished)  civ games
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Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by quinns on 03-04-2001 08:00 PM
I believe this point movement system creates way too much micro management of everything.
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I am not sure about that. You would basically drag a straight line (OK, curved to fit the sphere) from the unit to the point where you want to move it and the unit would move there. Moreover, units and cities would still occupy some space on the map, so that that would remain unchanged, only their position would not be discrete (well it would be less discrete anyway  ). On the other hand, I am not convinced myself about the suitability of the idea, as the map generation would be difficult to say the least.
quote:
(By the way, I think you meant spherical, not polar. Polar coordinates [angle and radius] represent points in two dimensions where spherical [theta angle, phi angle, and radius] represent points in three dimensions like latitude and longitude with the radius always being the radius of the earth.)
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Like coordinate geometry, polar geometry can also be applied to any number of dimensions. Spherical might be the name for it in three dimensions, though, whenever I talked about it I always called it polar. What you describe, however, is what I meant, so I didn't cause any confusion, I hope.
quote:
The reason for wanting to stay with the Buckminster Fuller (bucky ball or soccer ball) spherical representation, is because it allows discrete regions to be able to apply regional properties more simply.
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This is true, I haven't thought of that  . While it could be done in the point movement system, it would be much more complicated to program.
In fact this statement has led me to a great  (IMO) idea, which I will describe later in this post.
quote:
Chess and Go use discrete squares, with just a few different types of pieces, yet both games still offer infinitely complex strategies.
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Well, with the point idea was not trying to suggest it would be better for strategy, only that it would make a better and more flexible sphere.
quote:
And yes, there would always be 52 regions, (I think that comes out to 60 vertices, like you said Roman), on all the spheres represented in this game engine, no matter how large or small.
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Actually it is not quite that inflexible a structure. In my studies of chemistry, I came across other buckyballs of different sizes. 60 vertices (52 regions) is just the smallest of the structures that folds into a sphere. There are other larger ones, but I have forgotten the exact numbers for them since.
quote:
Yes, when the Bucky Ball is laid out flat there are some gaps between the hexagons and pentagons, but the computer handles all of this wrapping for the player.
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I don't think the map even needs to be laid out flat for the player, so this needen't be a problem.
Now the idea I had would help us vary map sizes while keeping the buckyball structure. It is very simple. One buckyball region would simply be made up of multiple tiles, which could be say hexagonal so that they would fit perfectly into the hexagonal regions of the buckyball. Of course, the fit would not be perfect into the pentagons, but it would be close enough. Simple and effective, no?
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quinns
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Mark G, Your opinion is always valued here. But I did check out the other Alternative Civ games and did not see one that was even remotely close to what I had in mind. I'm glad you placed this thread in the "Other Games" section because it really will not be a Civilizaton Clone. Maybe a Distant Cousin to Civilization, but definitely not a clone!
Roman, We are thinking somewhat similarly. I had thought about trying to squeeze hexes into a pentagon, but I ended up not liking the thought. I've been in the computer industry long enough to know that the one area that you try to "fudge" on programatically, (even though it might only reflect 1% of the program), will be the part of the code that causes 95% of the bugs... over and over. I still like the idea of always using 52 regions (a perfect bucky ball) to represent all heavenly bodies... from a sun to an asteroid. The scale would be the primary thing that changes on the spherical model. This would make programming all 95 major solar sytem bodies an exercise in repitition once the first model is created. In addition, other stellar planetary systems could be added without too much extra programming.
I DO like the idea of "point" movement in regards to the "Stellar" map display only. And "hex" movement in the "Planetary System" display. It is only on the "Spherical Body" display that we should use the "bucky ball" (52 region) model, in my opinion. The limited 52 regions that would represent Earth (and the other planets) actually works out well for a grand strategy game. And I like the idea of programming just ONE basic modeling engine to represent any sized world or heavenly body.
We need to start thinking a little about the structure of the company now, though, (in addition to the first game) .... Viceroy? Can you help us with this "hierarchy and structure" a little?
Also, we might start to be getting into possible copyright problems if we go into any more detail here on the forum. I can see this forum as a recruitment area (if you don't mind too much Mark G ) for the new company, but we should probably start taking these "game detail" ideas off forum for our own good, I think.
Respectfully,
Quinns
[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 05, 2001).]
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quinns
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And Wittlich... Thanks for your list of accomplishments. Your skills will be very beneficial to the company, I'm sure.
I'm not sure if your going to like this, but I was a second lieutenant in the field artillery back in the early 1980's. (I couldn't hack it as an enlisted man!) I made it to E4 before I went to OCS. I was stationed at Fort Benning most of the time... (I know, it's the Infantry school, not Artillery!). But because I was airborne qualified, I got sent there, I guess. My MOS was 11B as an enlisted man, so I guess that helped put me there as well. In any event, I never saw any action... I was a Peace Time -- 90 Day Wonder -- Butterbar! But it really was good experience, regardless.
Quinns
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Quinns, lol!!! I can relate with that. I myself did two tours with Field Artillery in Germany. Both units were with PERSHING. I always got a kick when someone asked me what size artillery did my unit have. My answer - the really bad ones - since PERSHING was nuclear and ONLY nuclear capable...but since the signing of the treaty, PERSHING II has since gone by the way side. Of course, being MI, I worked in the G-2 so the assignments were not really all that bad
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quinns
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PERSHINGS!! I had ONE class on nukes... and the briefing they gave us before the class led me to believe that they were going to reveal all the secrets of the United States!! (Of course, they didn't reveal much at all, as you know well I'm sure.)
Regarding this new gaming company. Does anyone have any suggestions about the best way to discuss these topics in private amongst us all? I have an ICQ address, and it seems pretty popular to have an ICQ number in this forum. Is this a good way to discuss things privately, with many people involved?? Mass e-mail seems so cumbersome, especially if I'm trying to record the data coming and going. Any better ideas welcome!
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quinns
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List of Members in Quinn Simulations, LLC:
(As of 14-MAR-2001)
Quinns ** (Programmer/Analyst/Developer/Organizer)
Roman ** (Science Adviser)
TheViceroy ** (Administrative Consultant)
Darkknight ** (Graphics Artist)
Wittlich ** (Political Analyst/Military Adviser)
KenHinds ** (Historian/Programmer)
K. Allen ** (Game Developer/Journalist/Writer)
Franses ** (Administrator/Programmer)
Keygen ** (Program Tester/Administrator)
Fraze ** (Programmer)
D. Christopher ** (Graphics Artist/Programmer)
I. Walkington ** (Mathematician)
Mobius ** (Designer)
TheBirdMan ** (Designer/Programmer)
King Thor ** (Programmer)
[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 27, 2001).]
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Well, downloaded the program and got a new ICQ number...my God! my last number was only 5 or 6 digits long...this one is 9!!! Oh, and by the way it's 110689330
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quinns
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Will do Mark -- you are removed. Sorry for not joining your team. And sorry I couldn't persuade you to join ours. It looks like you do good work! I've always wanted to "stretch to the stars" with the whole Civilization concept, and this new game attempts to do this, (but not like many of the "start with a ship and expand" space games already out there). This one starts on Earth (or an imaginary world on another star system), develops it's civilization, then expands to other worlds. I know this might have been done before, but that shouldn't stop us from trying to do it better!
Wittlich has joined ICQ... good! I think this might work well for us... Any other opinions about other private communication methods?
Quinns
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RonHiler
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California, USA
May 2000
time: 21:13
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Hi Quinns and all,
As far as the mailing list goes, I'm going to have to ask you to drop me from it as well. I get plenty enough mail dealing with my own project without putting another one on top of it!
You seem to have conscripted the programmers from all the other alt-civ games, heh. I don't know that they are going to drop their own projects, which keep them quite busy (I'm sure) to work on yours. Don't take it the wrong way. It's just after getting a year or two into a project, there is little chance they'd be willing to give up all the invested work to start all over again. For MD, which has three years of work behind it, and has just moved into a playable form, that would be just silly, if you see what I mean. Plus our players would kill me
But don't think that I, at least, won't be interested or offer advice (if asked). I especially have a bit of experience with spherical world programming, and I know some of the traps and pitfalls you are going to encounter with this task, having gone through it myself. We even tried the "bucky-ball" approach at one point (though with limited success. There are some complications to that method which you haven't considered yet, but you'll get there).
I can't do any programming for you (my programming time is completely tied up with MD), but I will try out demos and offer suggestions and such, as will all of the gang from alt-civ. It seems as though you have an interesting game concept. If you ever want to contact me, the best place to do it is on the Alt-Civ board, which is one I always check. I rarely come to "Other Games", and it is only by accident I saw this thread at all. That is really sort of where this thread ought to be anyway, since you are talking about an Alt-Civ kind of game. I always thought this board was more geared toward games in genres other than turn-based historical strategy games.
In any case, good luck with the new game! Keep us posted on how it progresses.
Ron
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Darkknight, I went ahead and added you to my ICQ
[This message has been edited by wittlich (edited March 07, 2001).]
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quinns
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Some answers:
Dark Knight -- Sorry no, I haven't received any of your emails ... please send to quinn2084@yahoo.com . (My Apolyton profile won't allow the yahoo.com address so I put "yaahoo.com" in it instead ... this might be the problem.)
And the bucky ball regions will definitely be flat, not bulged. I have a rough sketched Visio picture of the bucky ball laid flat if that helps anyone. Just let me know and I'll send you a copy.
Yes, the economic, military, and mapping models will be quite different than any of the existing games that I have ever seen. Much simpler. I believe that we should keep the first game as simple, clear, yet true to reality, as possible. We'll let the players come up with the complex strategies on their own, (rather than allowing "strategy" to be defined as: "whoever knows the best secrets of the game", which happens in many modern computer games.)
Roman -- As far as the "scale" and map being inaccurate. All of the Civ games already have gross inaccuracies regarding reality. Look at the "city radius" on all the games. On the average, most civ games are about 100 squares around the world. That means each square is about 250 miles across. So a "city radius" is about 1250 miles in diameter (or 1.2 million square miles). That's about the size of the entire southwest region of the United States, including California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico! That's a big city!! And what terrain type should each of the square tiles have in that case? A 250 mile square tile represents 62000 square miles of land. There can be lots of mountains, forests, rivers, deserts, and grasslands in 62000 square miles!
My point, is that I think we should move away from exact terrain types in our new game, (even though the Civilization games sure look pretty with all those nice terrain features!). Our representation is even more grand than Civilization. Our Earth has about 200,000,000 square miles on it's surface. Divide that by 52 gives us about 3 to 4 million square miles per bucky ball region. We definitely need to represent this huge discrete region more generally than with mountains, forests, rivers, etc.
Comments welcome of course!
(And we are still looking for more recruits for this new game company -- even it only means you can contribute one hour per YEAR, we would still like to have you on board! We already have about 7 team members so far. Please post here if you are interested in becoming part of this team.)
[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 07, 2001).]
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quinns
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Yes Ribannah, we could do that. There are already some pretty good models out there that use a strict hexagon represention. (I remember that the role playing game series Traveler used to do this hexagonal representation of worlds, back in the early 1980's.) But for some reason, I just don't like it. I wish I could say exactly why. Too many years in programming probably. Every time I didn't use EXACT rules to model something, it came back to bite me in the long run. The geometry of the bucky ball is perfect. I know that the programmers are going to have a real rough time with this 3D depiction of the sphere, so the more exact and discrete we can make it, the better.
Thanks for your input Ribannah!
[This message has been edited by quinns (edited March 07, 2001).]
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quinns
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Hello Ken!
We sure could use your programming skills here, even though you might think they are out of date. (I don't think that's true, by the way. Good programming skills are similar in all languages. I know COBOL, PASCAL, RPG, JAVASCRIPT, PERL, BASIC, FORTRAN, PL/SQL, and I'm trying to learn JAVA now... and they are all really pretty similar once you learn the syntax and calling routine formats. My experience is also with the big machines, and not with the gaming world, unfortunately.) Even if you opt not to join in the programming, we could still use your historical expertise. Read the above section on compensation. If you agree with how we divide up the royalties once the game releases... you are welcome to join us!
I'm really leaning towards writing this entire game in JAVA. I like the browser based design concept, rather than writing a separate version of the game for each specific platform. How do the rest of you feel about this? Especially you Dark Knight... Can your graphics be incorporated well with JAVA?
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05-03-2001 10:41
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