18-01-2005 15:57									#31
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Europeans wouldn't know the difference.

	18-01-2005 16:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Europeans wouldn't know the difference.

Erm, some Europeans are Celts, and some are Buddhists.

And some are Celtic Buddhists.

	18-01-2005 16:15									#33
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Really, to 'apolytonize' should be a real verb covering the action of, say, taking a headline such as 'EU considers Nazi symbols ban' and turning it into 'EU bans symbols'.

Additionally, there should be an OMG somewhere in the thread title.

	18-01-2005 16:17									#34
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Erm, some Europeans are Celts, and some are Buddhists. And some are Celtic Buddhists.

Doesn't matter. The PC mafia bans all swastikas, no matter what they symbolise.

	18-01-2005 16:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Really, to 'apolytonize' should be a real verb covering the action of, say, taking a headline such as 'EU considers Nazi symbols ban' and turn into 'EU bans symbols'. Additionally, there should be an OMG somewhere in the thread title.

Pyrodrew's flag is the Stars and Stripes; ergo, any thread title of his containing 'E.U.' automatically becomes suspect, unless there's a definite signalled intention to 'epater les bourgeois', or some kind of ironic stance involved.

	18-01-2005 16:48									#36
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Ehm, shouldn't people who want to ban swastika's have free speech too ?

	18-01-2005 18:09									#37
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I think there should be EU regulations how a swastika should look like to qualify as swastika

	18-01-2005 18:10									#38
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I'm sure there already are.

	18-01-2005 18:15									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Really, to 'apolytonize' should be a real verb covering the action of, say, taking a headline such as 'EU considers Nazi symbols ban' and turning it into 'EU bans symbols'.

You caught me. I took MarkG's lead to 'apolytonize' the title after seeing his impressive 'apolytonize' work... "US Troops destroy (some) Babylon (artifacts/relics)". So I decided to try it once.

quote: Pyrodrew's flag is the Stars and Stripes; ergo, any thread title of his containing 'E.U.' automatically becomes suspect, unless there's a definite signalled intention to 'epater les bourgeois', or some kind of ironic stance involved.

Such is the nature of Apolyton... so do not fret, the favor of suspicion is similiarly returned.

quote: Additionally, there should be an (BANNED BY ORDER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION) somewhere in the thread title.

Impossible. The EU banned that abbreviation since it contains the G word - BANNED BY ORDER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

	18-01-2005 18:55									#40
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meh

	18-01-2005 19:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew You caught me. I took MarkG's lead to 'apolytonize' the title after seeing his impressive 'apolytonize' work... "US Troops destroy (some) Babylon (artifacts/relics)". So I decided to try it once.

Ah well, no harm done. Have a nice day.

	18-01-2005 19:08									#42
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Euros don't have free speech anyway. Close, but not unlimited.

	18-01-2005 19:13									#43
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Americans don't have free speech anyway. Close, but not unlimited.

	18-01-2005 23:22									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat never gunna happen Edit/ Although I'd be interested to see the public reaction in Britain if it's tried. How many people actually would fight for the right to free expression of something they loathed?

I will.

	19-01-2005 04:11									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I agree BTW, that while Germany may have understandable and proper cause for upholding such a ban, the rest of Europe ought to stay clear of restrictions.

Except for Austria, of course. We have similar laws as the Germans, in some aspects even stricter Nazi-prohibition.

	19-01-2005 04:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The Nazi swastika, as far as I can ascertain, is usually or always, a right facing black swastika. Celtic and Asian swastikas (and swastika type symbols found in other cultures such as Native American) usually face left.

Buddhist swastikas go left, but Hindi ones go both ways (universal balance and stuff).

I imagine banning the right-handed swastika would either serve no purpose whatesoever, or force neo-Nazis to pervert the left-handed swastika as well.

	19-01-2005 04:42									#47
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I wonder how Germany and France will oppress the other members this time to get this ban through

	19-01-2005 04:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Then ban the hammer and sickle.

If Russia decided to do that, I wouldn't cry about it.

But UR made a good point... the cross should be banned before the hammer and sickle.

	19-01-2005 08:07									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Yeah, let's team up with China - ban Falun Gong!

Good idea

The Buddist "swastika" came from Hinduism, AFAIK, and the other sign on the image you linked to is Daoist (the Yin-Yang figure).

	19-01-2005 15:16									#50
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This is typically the kind of issues that should be left to Member-States.

When the EU makes idiotic attempts to rear its nose where it doesn't belong, such as this case, is when it becomes unpopular

I completely agree with the German ban on Swastikas, and I don't have a principled opposition on such a ban in other countries. But that's to these other countries to decide, not to the EU.

	19-01-2005 15:27									#51
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You say 'unpopular', Spiffor, but what stops them from doing it? If they shouldn't get their noses into it, what makes them able to?

	19-01-2005 15:28									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I completely agree with the German ban on Swastikas, and I don't have a principled opposition on such a ban in other countries. But that's to these other countries to decide, not to the EU.

Education trumps knee-jerk banning every time, especially less than a fortnight away from the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

	19-01-2005 15:29									#53
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I don't think banning swastikas does anything good. We don't believe the very shape is so mesmerizing it turns people into Nazis, do we?

Incidentally, assuming this ban isn't enacted, couldn't we take Germany and Austria to the EU Court over the ban? It, afterall, constitutes an obstacle to inter-member commerce by forcing gaming companies to make special Nazi-symbol-free versions of WWII games.

	19-01-2005 16:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I don't think banning swastikas does anything good. We don't believe the very shape is so mesmerizing it turns people into Nazis, do we? Incidentally, assuming this ban isn't enacted, couldn't we take Germany and Austria to the EU Court over the ban? It, afterall, constitutes an obstacle to inter-member commerce by forcing gaming companies to make special Nazi-symbol-free versions of WWII games.

I rather suspect the putative 'ban' would have some sensible limitations- i.e., not recalling vast amounts of history books, or rummaging through second hand bookshops for the Daily Express Annual 1939, which as I recall had a page illustrating aircraft of the world- although without the warning that

'Yes, dear readers, very soon you'll be seeing some of the swastikad ones over our skies soon!'

	19-01-2005 16:08									#55
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That relates to what I said how?

	19-01-2005 16:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That relates to what I said how?

'It, afterall, constitutes an obstacle to inter-member commerce by forcing gaming companies to make special Nazi-symbol-free versions of WWII games.'

That bit, peut-etre?


After all, aren't they going to have to determine what is for educational, or entertainment purposes, and what is glorification or propagation of Nazism when it comes to depictions or reproduction of the Nazi symbol ?


I can't imagine, for instance, that they'd ask the Imperial War Museum to cleanse its Holocaust Gallery of any offensive symbols.

	19-01-2005 16:26									#57
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom After all, aren't they going to have to determine what is for educational, or entertainment purposes, and what is glorification or propagation of Nazism when it comes to depictions or reproduction of the Nazi symbol ?

They usually make these differences here. Or at least they try to, of course in reality it is not easy. You can argue perhaps it would be better not to ban that at all, but at least for my country I'd say it was the right thing after WWII (and let's not forget the German laws in this aspect are/were influenced by the Allied judgement at Nuremberg), and probably for the next time. I could imagine they lift the ban when some time has passed.....

	19-01-2005 16:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro You can argue perhaps it would be better not to ban that at all, but at least for my country I'd say it was the right thing after WWII (and let's not forget the German laws in this aspect are/were influenced by the Allied judgement at Nuremberg), and probably for the next time. I could imagine they lift the ban when some time has passed.....

I'd certainly agree that the ban on swastikas in West Germany has to be looked at in the context of the aftermath of the war, denazification, and education, and certainly shouldn't just be viewed simply as an affront to free speech and the body politic.


Given the horrendous treatment of Germany's own citizens (Jews and non-jews) at the hands of the Nazis, and the appalling levels of destruction and depopulation, I'd argue that it constitutes a special case when it comes to sensitivity over the symbol issue.

But then, West Germany achieved much more in its efforts to enlighten the general populace about what really happened. The reactions of Japanese visitors to the War museum in Singapore offers a very interesting contrast.


I just wish some people would stop treating today's Germans as if they were still responsible for what happened in 1933, or 1936, or 1938, or 1945....


Vorsprung durch Freundschaft.

	19-01-2005 17:11									#59
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I just wish some people would stop treating today's Germans as if they were still responsible for what happened in 1933, or 1936, or 1938, or 1945....

Basil: "Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. So it's all forgotten now and let's hear no more about it. So that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Herman Goering and four Colditz salads....no, wait a minute...I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the war."

German: "Will you stop mentioning the war?"

Basil: " You started it."

German: " We did not start it."

Basil: " Yes you did, you invaded Poland..."

	19-01-2005 17:11									#60
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I'd certainly agree that the ban on swastikas in West Germany has to be looked at in the context of the aftermath of the war, denazification, and education, and certainly shouldn't just be viewed simply as an affront to free speech and the body politic. Given the horrendous treatment of Germany's own citizens (Jews and non-jews) at the hands of the Nazis, and the appalling levels of destruction and depopulation, I'd argue that it constitutes a special case when it comes to sensitivity over the symbol issue.

Yep, although it wasn't easy. Initially after the war, and far into the 50ies a large part of the German society lived in a self-constructed myth of being the true victims of the war. Other "unpleasant" memories about the things like the Holocaust, warcrimes, treatment of minorities or political opponents were marginalized to some extent by at least a part of the population. It took a while before reality finally got through. In this aspect I'd also say the reaction of the Allies (and the following German laws) regarding the NSDAP, other Nazi orgs and subsequently the use of their symbols was the only right decision, since it opened the chance to change the public view on the war deeply although slowly over the years.

quote: Vorsprung durch Freundschaft.