25-01-2005 05:23									#181
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quote: Originally posted by trev There are many things in the fossil record, sedimentary rock record etc which with todays knowledge cannot be adequately explained by EITHER evolution OR creation. However I am a thinking person and therefore I try to make best sense of the facts given in the context of known, proven physical laws. My thinking processes tell me that 'no rainbow prior to flood' means 'no rain prior to flood' as there is a connection by known physical laws between the two. Furthermore my thinking processes tell me that 'no rain means no uplift of air masses' and as mountains usually result in the uplift of air masses and consequent rain, this seems to preclude the presence of mountains.

And it would also preclude the presence of oceans, particularly ones in tropical regions. Ditto large expanses of forest, which given your postulated large underground aquifers would be rather abundant I imagine. For a 'thinking person' you're being rather foolish. My thinking processes tell me that 'no rainbow prior to flood' means 'experimental error, please check again with a larger dataset'.

	25-01-2005 05:25									#182
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quote: Originally posted by trev True, the bible as a book is designed to lead people to God, not explain science. However as God is truth, every thing that is written in the Bible will not contradict the physical laws of the universe, known or unknown. The bible teaches of a soul and spirit and the fact that at death that soul/spirit leaves the body to travel to heaven/hell/sheol/abode of the dead etc. It also records several instances of out of body experiences (Paul going to third heaven,Ezekials visions,St Johns visions in revelations etc), so I am extrapolating from known biblical events to explain out of body experiences on the operating table, a reasonable process. Also the bible clearly teaches that our spirits can link up with God's spirit and I am extrapolating the possible forces involved in this process to offer plausible explainations for the twin phenonema, migratory bird phenonema etc. A belief in God and a belief in the bible does not prevent us from using rational thinking and thought processes to explain phenonema not directly explained by the bible, but still within the context of biblical teaching.

Now let me make this more simple, prove god. Also another question, what makes your religion so much better then any other one out there?

	25-01-2005 05:29									#183
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quote: If you are on the point of claiming that the soul can sense without the need for organs, then why hae them in the first place, and wherefore blind people?

There are instances of people in scientific literature who have some measure of sight even when the optic nerve is severed totally, so in very rare instances sight has been obtained by measures apart from eyes. What the bible teaches about the body is that it limits our abilities, death is seen by apostle Paul as a time of liberation, once the spirit is liberated from the body at death, it can do much more. Questions as to why God designed our bodies to limit our spirits ability need to be put to God himself, although I have attempted to answer many other questions I will stay clear of that one.

	25-01-2005 05:40									#184
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Please give some references to this and don't be shy to give references to physical books if there are no web links.

	25-01-2005 05:41									#185
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quote: Also another question, what makes your religion so much better then any other one out there?

The bible has been shown to be correct in many of the historical facts presented,it has an perfect record of prophesying future events to this point in time, and therefore there is no reason to suspect that will not continue to be the case with oustanding prophecies, and it presents through the death by crucifixation of the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, and his resurrection and the forgiveness of wrongs now offered by Jesus, a perfect way for humans to relate to God and be a part of God's heaven. To my knowledge no other religion comes close in all these points.

	25-01-2005 05:43									#186
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quote: Originally posted by trev it has an perfect record of prophesying future events to this point in time,

er... name three?

	25-01-2005 05:44									#187
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I cannot give any scientific reference to claims of sight without eyes, but I often go down to the local library and read mainly 'New Scientist' but also others. Most likely it was read as a brief report in the New Scientist possibly about 2 years ago but that is a best guess of mine only.

	25-01-2005 05:59									#188
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quote: Originally posted by trev The bible has been shown to be correct in many of the historical facts presented,it has an perfect record of prophesying future events to this point in time, and therefore there is no reason to suspect that will not continue to be the case with oustanding prophecies, and it presents through the death by crucifixation of the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, and his resurrection and the forgiveness of wrongs now offered by Jesus, a perfect way for humans to relate to God and be a part of God's heaven. To my knowledge no other religion comes close in all these points.

The bible is inadequate and has been proven to be wrong numerous times including with accounts related to the great flood. You speak of a perfect record of predicting future events? Wrong again. The bible is a stupid book and this son of god stuff, won't get you too far.

	25-01-2005 06:01									#189
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quote: er... name three?

1: The return of the Hebrew people to the land of Israel after a long exile.
2:Isaiah 53:7-10 Excerpts (NKJV)He was taken from prison and from judgement, For he was cut off from the land of the living; (Jesus arrest, trial, sentence and crucifixation prophesied) He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days (Jesus resurrection prophesied)
3: Isaiah 7:14 Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Jesus birth prophesied. note Immanuel means God with us, which Jesus being God was God with us.)

	25-01-2005 06:13									#190
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quote: Originally posted by trev There are many things in the fossil record, sedimentary rock record etc which with todays knowledge cannot be adequately explained by EITHER evolution OR creation.

What isn't explicable in the fossil record by evolutionary theory? I'm dying to hear. What in the sedimentary rock record isn't explicable by geology (evolution, obviously, wouldn't explain such a thing anyway).

You're long on bald assertions, short on facts given here. I'd like some for a change.

quote: However I am a thinking person and therefore I try to make best sense of the facts given in the context of known, proven physical laws.

A thinking person would more likely realize that the story of the rainbow in Genesis is just a little bit of mythology used to explain the existence of a phenomenon that the ancients could otherwise not explain.

	25-01-2005 06:23									#191
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quote: Originally posted by trev 1: The return of the Hebrew people to the land of Israel after a long exile. 2:Isaiah 53:7-10 Excerpts (NKJV)He was taken from prison and from judgement, For he was cut off from the land of the living; (Jesus arrest, trial, sentence and crucifixation prophesied) He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days (Jesus resurrection prophesied) 3: Isaiah 7:14 Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Jesus birth prophesied. note Immanuel means God with us, which Jesus being God was God with us.)

And that these have been fulfilled is subjective. Many Jewish scholars reject that the prophecy of the return to the Holy Land has been adequately fulfilled. You can ask the ultraconservatives about that.

Isiah 53 is vague, and there's no evidence that the details given in the NT about Jesus's arrest, trial and execution are even true. What if the gospel authors were fictionalizing an account to make it appear that some OT prophecies had been fulfilled?

and Isiah 7:14:

quote: -The author of Matthew quoted the Septuagint (Greek) version of the Hebrew Scriptures. The Septuagint contains a translation error made when the Hebrew of Isaiah 7:14 was converted into Greek. Isaiah used almah to describe a young girl who would give birth. In Hebrew, an almah is a young woman of marriageable age. If he wanted to refer to a virgin, he would have used the word bethulah. The creators of the Greek translation, the Septuagint, mistranslated the Hebrew almah into the Greek parthenos, meaning virgin. The authors of Matthew and Luke were probably unable to read Hebrew; they would have relied on the Septuagint translation. They based part of their writing on the error in the Greek. They were obviously creating a story in order to make the prophecy come true. -Isaiah's prophecy was that the child Immanuel was to have been born in 742 BCE, the first year of King Ahaz's reign. Ahaz, the king of Judah, faced the combined armies of Syria and Israel. Isaiah explained to Ahaz that he should not form an alliance with Assyria. In support of this advice, God would provide a sign: a young woman would conceive and bear a child who would be named Immanuel. 2 The sign would have only have been effective if it happened almost immediately. It would not have given a lot of support to Isaiah's prophecy if more than seven centuries passed before it was fulfilled, over 700 years after King Ahaz' death. -Isaiah was clearly not referring to some event that would occur centuries later. When he referred to the far future, as in Chapter 11, he typically used a phrase such as "In that day." -The translation of the Hebrew name Immanuel, (Greek Emmanouel) as "God with us" in Matthew 1:23 implies that the name-holder is divine. The name really means "God is with us," meaning that God will support us. The name makes perfect sense if the child's name was to indicate to King Ahaz that God is on their side. Luke 1 states that Mary would call her son Yeshua (Jesus in Greek). He is called Yeshua throughout the Christian Scriptures -- not Immanuel. This analysis shows that Jesus, born to a virgin, was not prophesized by Isaiah. Rather, Isaiah must have been referring to a young woman who gave birth to a son circa 742 BCE -- a very normal occurrence. He predicted that she would call his name Immanuel. Many births to young women would have probably happened at that time. But, there is no mention either in the Bible or in the historical or archeological record that positively refers to an Immanuel having been born. It may or may not have come true. But the prophecy certainly was unrelated to Jesus' birth.

The Bible doesn't seem to hold up too well on the prophecy front when scrutinized closely:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

	25-01-2005 06:41									#192
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Hold on, you can't have the Bible predicting and fulfilling its own prophecies. That's like saying all the prophecies in the Harry Potter saga have come true. Name three externally verifyable prophecies.

	25-01-2005 06:58									#193
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Again, I dont understand why those who believe in god and creationism feel the need to justify their beliefs either through attacking the merit of scientific theories with religious 'evidence' or by attempting to promote their religious beliefs as being science itself.

IMO there's nothing the matter with religious studies in school proposing alternative explanations to scientific theories so long as all are treated reasonably equally. Just dont pretend it's science.

	25-01-2005 07:11									#194
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quote: Originally posted by trev True, the bible as a book is designed to lead people to God, not explain science.

So you admit that Creationism is bollocks. I agree.

quote: Originally posted by trev However as God is truth, every thing that is written in the Bible will not contradict the physical laws of the universe, known or unknown.

That's just too funny

The bible contradicts itself, let alone laws of nature.

quote: Originally posted by trev The bible teaches of a soul and spirit and the fact that at death that soul/spirit leaves the body to travel to heaven/hell/sheol/abode of the dead etc. It also records several instances of out of body experiences (Paul going to third heaven,Ezekials visions,St Johns visions in revelations etc)

That's nice. How does that different from Middle Earth or the Fogotten Realms?

quote: Originally posted by trev so I am extrapolating from known biblical events to explain out of body experiences on the operating table, a reasonable process. Also the bible clearly teaches that our spirits can link up with God's spirit

God's spirit? Where in the bible does it say that YHWH has a spirit?

quote: Originally posted by trev and I am extrapolating the possible forces involved in this process to offer plausible explainations for the twin phenonema, migratory bird phenonema etc

1. There is no "twin phenomenon" - you watched too much television. There is, however, a Twin Paradox.

2. Even if this "migratory bird phenomenon" is real, you don't need a god to explain it. This is just the old "God in the Gaps" argument.

quote: Originally posted by trev A belief in God and a belief in the bible does not prevent us from using rational thinking and thought processes to explain phenonema not directly explained by the bible, but still within the context of biblical teaching.

Not if you are a fundie.

	25-01-2005 07:12									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Hold on, you can't have the Bible predicting and fulfilling its own prophecies. That's like saying all the prophecies in the Harry Potter saga have come true. Name three externally verifyable prophecies.

Precisely.

	25-01-2005 07:29									#196
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Well - when you consider the other option, I would say life is abounding of the miraculous.

I am not sure what you mean by miraculous. However it is entirely meaningless to say whether life is/was rare until we have a lot more information. So far, there's is one single datum - you can draw a large number of lines through it.

Suppose we find evidence of life on Mars tomorrow and on Titan the day after that. Suddenly life would no longer be "miraculous," no?

quote: Originally posted by beingofone But to assert that God does not exist - well its like this - you would have to be God, because you would have to know and experience everything, to know with absolute knowledge God does not exist.

No. Let me explain this in greater detail. You can have one of the two mutually exclusive position with regards to all baseless assertions b₁, b₂, b₃...b_m

G: Accept them blindly until proven otherwise
S: Reject them until proven otherwise

You may not hold the two position at the same time, even if they are for different b_i. Otherwise you are arbitrary.

quote: Originally posted by beingofone doubleslit

Preciously where on the SETI site do you want me to look?

quote: Originally posted by beingofone You are correct. Quantum physics deals with the construction or fabric of the reality of the universe.

No. You maybe thinking about the ToE (Theory of Everything), however we don't have any such thing.

quote: Originally posted by beingofone I know what you mean, when the power goes down there is no reason to believe the lights will go on though. Have you considered that?

No. This is just Circuits 101 stuff. You have a closed circuit with a current. Attach a load to it, and the current does work.

Don't forget, regularity is a cornerstone of natural science.

	25-01-2005 07:31									#197
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SpencerH

quote: If I postulate that thought is a function of brain activity I can then interfere with brain activity and observe the effects on thought. If there is a measurable effect then I deduce that brain activity effects thought. As importantly, I now have a testable scientific hypothesis that can be physically confirmed or refuted by others.

If I postulate that you are thinking of a unicorn, how do I measure that? Or could it be, you are thinking of beer

quote: How does one conduct a physical test for the presence of god?

Do you experience happiness, sadness, joy, fear(you might not considering you are a biologist)? Are these emotions a reality for you and your life?
How does one conduct a physical test of a reality that you experience called emotion?

quote: The majority of the human race are skeptical of new scientific ideas because of ignorance. Scientists are also skeptical because of arrogance.

The majority of the human race are skeptical of spiritual enlightenment and understanding because of ignorance. Scientists are also skeptical because of arrogance.



Whaleboy

quote: Since when has the bible ever shown itself to have the answer, rather than offerning a series of inconsistent tautologies?

Oh - an expert in ancient language - Hebrew, Chaldea and Greek.
How long have you been in study of these writings and languages?


Last Conformist

quote: An "infinite" hmm - sounds close to the definition of God. Your ears are defective.

Infinite
1.immeasurably great 2.unbounded or unlimited 3.endless or innumerable
Infinity
1.the quality or state of being infinite etc etc etc.

Try thinking of some better answers please. I have seen some of your posts you seem to be a bright person or am I wrong again on my assumptions?

chegitz guevara

quote: How can twins feel the pain of the other twin when hundreds of miles apart and unaware of the event causing the pain? This is BS. It doesn't exist. It's purely fictional.

Sticking your head in the sand argument. I thought this argument was reserved for creationist theories.

quote: No, I don't have to do or be that. When you claim something, i.e., there is a God who knows all, sees all, is everywhere, made reaility, etc. you must provide proof of that claim.

Prove to me you have self- awareness.
Now if you don`t understand what I am saying here and how it is on topic and relative.
Take some time and think it through.

quote: All I can do is trust the word of other men, and as you well know, people are quite capable of believing in things that do not exist.

That is not the only option and it is not the best method.
You have your own reality and existence to believe in. And you must trust this reality above all else.

Immortal Wombat

quote: A molecule arose which by its existence increased the likelihood of other molecules with a similar shape to itself being created. By a complex series of chemical (and then biological) interactions which are not fully understood, these self-replicating devices became more complex, then more structured, until they came to resemble things we would recognise as "life".

Well that is a nice history lesson of a very ambitious hypothesis.

quote: The statement was perhaps you could explain life to me.

Let me rephrase the statement - perhaps you could explain your awareness of self-existence.


Boris Godunov

quote: Define "miracle." My hunch is your reasoning will be quite, quite circular.

Miracle
An event that surpasses all known human or natural knowledge and powers.

quote: How could you misread that so blatantly?

Ok - gods or God whatever. I still don`t see what I am missing here?
Could you enlighten me?

quote: The same could be said of unicorns. Why not believe they exist?

Are there species of fish you might know nothing about?

quote: And explain how it any way supports a notion of ID.

Did you go to the link?

quote: I know what you mean, when the power goes down there is no reason to believe the lights will go on though. Have you considered that? Wtf are you trying to say?

Uh - sarcasm with a twist of humor.
If you didn`t get it I must not be very good at humor.
Well, if so...duuuuuh!

quote: What does the length of time and number of authors have to do with scientific merit?

Did you read the post I was responding to? Try reading that post and then let me know if it was relative.

quote: I'd also say that since there are blatant scientific errors in the Bible, it loses credibility right there.

Oh another expert in ancient Hebrew, Chaldea and Greek. I am amazed at the years of study everyone has on this subject.

How many years have you studied these ancient languages?
I myself about 25 years.

quote: But the bottom line is that the Bible was written for the purpose of being a scientific work, and it is an abuse of the text to try and treat it as such. It is a work of religion and philosophy, not science.

Then why would science reach out of its confined field of study and try to explain self- existence?

Last Conformist

quote: I've still to hear of a good reason to believe that out-of-body experiences aren't a peculiar kind of hallucinations.

"Time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live." - Albert Einstein

Quantum mechanics treats time and space as a rigid, fixed, four dimensional coordinate system, however it shows that it is impossible to place any object in this coordinate system with absolute precision. So either time and space are flexible and relative to the observer, or they are fixed and the observer’s position as well as what he is observing can only be stated as a probability.

If you can solve this you will have found the holy grail of modern physics.

Bebro

Great creator of scenarios for Civ 2
Greetings - I have played Imperium many times

	25-01-2005 07:33									#198
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Infinite 1.immeasurably great 2.unbounded or unlimited 3.endless or innumerable Infinity 1.the quality or state of being infinite etc etc etc.

Start counting integers and tell me when you reach God.

	25-01-2005 07:38									#199
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Immortal Wombat Well that is a nice history lesson of a very ambitious hypothesis. Let me rephrase the statement - perhaps you could explain your awareness of self-existence.

Perhaps you could explain yours? Simply "God made it so" is no different from me saying "those things we call life invented mirrors and saw that they existed"


edit/ Got this when I posted.

quote: All life evolves by the differential survival of replicating entities. -- Dawkins

	25-01-2005 08:03									#200
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Miracle An event that surpasses all known human or natural knowledge and powers.

So back in the old days, you would have to qualify magnetism as a miracle, under this definition. After all, at the time, it wasn't "known" what caused it--people thought it was magic.

Likewise, today we may not "know" the exact cause of abiogenesis (though there are some pretty solid theories), but someday we could. Would life's miracle so easily be rendered mundane in that case?

But I wonder--if an event surpasses all "natural knowledge and powers," just how would you test for it?

And how do you know life meets this definition?

quote: Ok - gods or God whatever. I still don`t see what I am missing here? Could you enlighten me?

Urk. The plurality of god wasn't even an issue! Reread it carefully. It's about the distinction between having no belief in god and believing there is no god. Do you not see the difference?

quote: Are there species of fish you might know nothing about?

Would any of them possess magical powers? Has any species of fish demonstrated such? That is why using a unicorn as an example is the case here, you know...

quote: Did you go to the link?

Indeed. What was the point? I didn't see any mention of ID or god there.

quote: Uh - sarcasm with a twist of humor. If you didn`t get it I must not be very good at humor. Well, if so...duuuuuh!

Obviously not. But I suspect it was just more thoughtless posting on your part, actually.

quote: Did you read the post I was responding to? Try reading that post and then let me know if it was relative.

Yes, and you failed to answer the question. You obviously don't go around actively believing in unicorns. So why the double standard for those who don't believe in a god?

quote: Oh another expert in ancient Hebrew, Chaldea and Greek. I am amazed at the years of study everyone has on this subject. How many years have you studied these ancient languages? I myself about 25 years.

Fine. I gave you three examples of scientific inaccuracies in the Bible. Instead of answering, you post the childish dodge ahead which is nothing but an appeal to "authority." So feel free to utilize your expertise in these languages to tell me how it doesn't really say that rabbits shew their cud, bats are birds or insects have 4 legs. I'm rapt with eagerness.

I do find it ironic you wish me to accept your having spent 25 years studying something (without actually offering an explanation) as some sort of proof that you know more about it than me, yet you seem so quick to disregard the years and years of experience biologists have studying evolution because you think you know better. That's rich!

quote: Then why would science reach out of its confined field of study and try to explain self- existence?

What do you mean by "self-existence?" That is a nonsensical phrase as far as I can tell.

I fail to see how science studying the origins of life is it somehow reaching out of its confined field, if that's what you mean.

	25-01-2005 08:29									#201
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Prove to me you have self- awareness.

That's basic. Anybody who is self-aware can tell the difference between individuals.

quote: Originally posted by beingofone Miracle An event that surpasses all known human or natural knowledge and powers.

Okay, now show that "life is miraculous." IOW, it cannot arise naturally.

quote: Originally posted by beingofone Ok - gods or God whatever. I still don`t see what I am missing here? Could you enlighten me?

Atheism = "without theism." IOW, a lack of religious beliefs.

quote: Originally posted by beingofone Oh another expert in ancient Hebrew, Chaldea and Greek. I am amazed at the years of study everyone has on this subject. How many years have you studied these ancient languages? I myself about 25 years.

Is this an Appeal to Authority argument?

At any rate, seeing that people have been tranlating the bible for hundreds of years, is there any reason to believe that they aren't doing a good job?

quote: Originally posted by beingofone Then why would science reach out of its confined field of study and try to explain self- existence?

Why, do you think it's something beyond science?

quote: Originally posted by beingofone Quantum mechanics treats time and space as a rigid, fixed, four dimensional coordinate system, however it shows that it is impossible to place any object in this coordinate system with absolute precision.

No and no.

Relativity treats time and space as part of a four diminsional system, called spacetime. However spacetime is not rigid.

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not state that it is impossible to place any object in this coordinate system with arbitrary precision. It merely states that one cannot measure position and momentum with arbitrary precision at the same time.

quote: Originally posted by beingofone If you can solve this you will have found the holy grail of modern physics.

Nope. The holy grail of modern physics is ToE.

	25-01-2005 13:12									#202
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Do you experience happiness, sadness, joy, fear(you might not considering you are a biologist)? Are these emotions a reality for you and your life? How does one conduct a physical test of a reality that you experience called emotion?

You can measure hormone levels, nerve signals and other physical reactions in the body.

quote: Miracle An event that surpasses all known human or natural knowledge and powers.

What was considered a miracle 2-6000 years ago could be explained by science today. There has been progress. The sea withdrawing so that Moses could pass and later drowning the posse hunting him, was actually a Tsunami caused by a volcano. The volcano also explains the catastrophies that happened to Egypt at that time.

quote: Are there species of fish you might know nothing about?

Yes there are. But new species are discovered regularly, as we explore deeper into the ocean. What's your point?

	25-01-2005 15:02									#203
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quote: Oh - an expert in ancient language - Hebrew, Chaldea and Greek. How long have you been in study of these writings and languages?

How does that answer my question?

"Since when has the bible ever shown itself to have the answer, rather than offerning a series of inconsistent tautologies?" Are you suggesting that the English translation is lacking?

quote: 1: The return of the Hebrew people to the land of Israel after a long exile.

And where is the evidence of their incarceration? Give me numbers.

quote: Sticking your head in the sand argument. I thought this argument was reserved for creationist theories.

No, it's your proposition, you must back it up, the burden of proof is on you.

quote: Are there species of fish you might know nothing about?

The ignorance fallacy, one I'm seeing you make numerous instances of. Lack of evidence against |= evidence for.

quote: No and no. Relativity treats time and space as part of a four diminsional system, called spacetime. However spacetime is not rigid. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not state that it is impossible to place any object in this coordinate system with arbitrary precision. It merely states that one cannot measure position and momentum with arbitrary precision at the same time.

UR: I can't believe he said it either. How can we take someone seriously if they attempt to talk about cosmology, with such a blatently wrong understanding of basic special relativity?

	25-01-2005 15:02									#204
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quote: Originally posted by beingofone Oh - an expert in ancient language - Hebrew, Chaldea and Greek. How long have you been in study of these writings and languages? Oh another expert in ancient Hebrew, Chaldea and Greek. I am amazed at the years of study everyone has on this subject. How many years have you studied these ancient languages? I myself about 25 years.

This is the fallacious argumentum ad verecundiam- your purported expertise in ancient languages does not address how much knowledge of science you have, nor does it address how much science Ur of the Chaldees or Shuruppak had, nor whether that science was based as today's science is, upon what may be measured or observed rather than inferred from the transcribed mumblings out of a drug fuelled haze of a high priest or priestess.

This is about as relevant as saying that Newton was a groundbreaking scientist, Newton spoke English, therefore his judgments on English dramatic tragedy are sound.

	25-01-2005 16:10									#205
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quote: Originally posted by trev True, the bible as a book is designed to lead people to God, not explain science. However as God is truth, every thing that is written in the Bible will not contradict the physical laws of the universe, known or unknown.

What about an alternative Explanation?

The Bible wan´t written by god himself but by humans.

As they wished to attribute a lot of stories to him, they also incorporated some older stories about a flood (there are babylonian accounts of the flood within the Gilgamesh Epos [1500 years older than the accounts for the flood within the bible]) and attributed the Flood to him (instead to Eki the local Babylonian god who was responsiblke for the flood of the Gilgamesh Epos and who warned the equivalent to Noah, who also exists in this story [who doesn´t take all animals in existence with him, but only the animals and seeds from his farm])

What if the bible therefore is rather a mix of history accounts and mythology, which should be read this way and not as if all of these stories had happened exacvtly as written down within the bible.

What if this also applies to the Jesus Stories and the stories about Jesus are also a mix about things the real Jersus said and things which were attributed to him to make him more "holy".
Things like the virgin birth for example could be explained as inventions which were used to fit Jesus into the prophecies about the coming messiah, as Boris already stated (as well as the location for birth, Bethlehem).

You have also problems if you want to find out the exact year of birth just by using the accounts within the bible.
Matthews as well as Luke state, that Jesus was born during a time when Herodes was king in Jerusalem.
But Luke also states that Jesus was born during the time when Quirinus was governor of Syria and that during this time a census was held.
From roman records we know the exact year when Quirinus was instituted as governor of Syria. It is the year 6 AD. More interesting is, that in this year you also had a census.
Now the problem, Herodes wasn´t alive during this time anymore, as he died in 4 BC.
So you can only have the one (Herodes was king) or the other (Quirinus was governor of Syria) but not both of them together.


So what if the bible therefore can´t take as a literal account of historic events really happend (i.e. some didn´t happen, other happened, but maybe not exactly as written within the bible).
Would knowing (or accepting) such things (i.e. that the bible shouldn´t be taken as a direct message of god which is literal true) alter your Belief in god?
And if the answer is "yes", how and why so?

	25-01-2005 16:16									#206
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Wasn't there two Herodes?

	25-01-2005 16:26									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Wasn't there two Herodes?

As I recall, quite a few.

Herod Archelaus, Herod Agrippa, Herod the Great, Herod Antipas....

It was a popular name, like Sweden with its numerous Karls and Eriks, or Denmark with its Christians.

Also, they were at times and according to the political scene, ethnarchs, tetrarchs and kings, weren't of Jewish stock, but rather Idumaean, and there's no reliable evidence of the slaughter of the innocents other than the gospel account.

And at times there were several 'Herods' ruling different parts of the Middle East at the same time.

Think of it as a soap opera without the t.v. guide synopsis to help us...

	25-01-2005 21:10									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie What was considered a miracle 2-6000 years ago could be explained by science today. There has been progress. The sea withdrawing so that Moses could pass and later drowning the posse hunting him, was actually a Tsunami caused by a volcano. The volcano also explains the catastrophies that happened to Egypt at that time.

There's not even a need to explain these as such. There is absolutely zero evidence from Egyptian history that any of the disasterous events of Exodus happened. You would think an event as traumatic as the death of all the firstborn children (way to go, ye merciful Yahweh...) would be in their history somewhere. But it isn't.

Also, many theologians believe that the "Red Sea" is a mistranslation of the "Reed Sea," which is a small, easily crossable marsh that bounds the Sinai Peninsula. It would make sense for any group of people to be heading there to cross, rather than heading to the Red Sea and hoping for a miracle.

	25-01-2005 21:19									#209
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Back to the ID issue, there's a great article on Panda's Thumb about research that demonstrates that aspects of human evolution are due to a loss of "information." One of the strangest claims from ID proponents is that mutation/natural selection can only produce a "loss of information," not a gain. It's a bizarre claim, especially since they refuse to define "information" with any sort of accuracy. As one poster at PT put it, by their logic, chipping away a block of marble to form the David statue would be a "loss of information."

http://www.pandasthumb.org/pt-archives/000762.html#more

quote: Ajit Varki of UCSD led the research that established that Neu5GC is missing from humans. He decided to figure out how it disappeared. Other mammals make Neu5Gc by tinkering with Neu5Ac. The enzyme that does the actual tinkering is known as CMAH. This enzyme is pretty much identical in mammals ranging from chimpanzees to pigs. In humans, Varki and his colleagues discovered, the gene for CMAH is broken. It produces a stunted version of the enzyme which can’t manufacture Neu5Gc, and so our cells end up with none of these sugars on their surfaces. The CMAH gene is broken the same way in every person that has been studied. That strongly suggests that all living humans inherited the mutation from a common ancestor. Since chimpanzees, our closest living relatives, have a working version of the gene, that ancestor must have lived less than six million years ago. Scientists can even say exactly how the gene mutated. A parasitic stretch of DNA known as an Alu element produced a copy of itself which got randomly inserted in the middle of the CMAH gene.

So a "loss of information," as it were, seems capable of leading to beneficial evolutionary changes. Who would have thought? (okay, evolutionary biologists would have...)

	25-01-2005 21:27									#210
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And there's no volcano in Egypt. Plus a tidal wave would only give you ten minutes time to cross from the time the sea receded.