03-08-2005 20:33									#241
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Posting after 4 days of inactivity can't be called necromancy in any way.

	03-08-2005 20:43									#242
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Okay, surgery/healing seemed just too good for me..

	03-08-2005 20:53									#243
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Oh, but you are confusing him for DrSpike!

	04-08-2005 01:19									#244
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I am DrSpike and so is my wife

	04-08-2005 03:27									#245
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Always look on the bright side of life...

	05-08-2005 03:31									#246
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Ok,

I'm getting behind the times here!!

What is a "tech-demo" and a "thread-necromancer"

Sophist,

Call me an old cynic, but I'm very synical of the shareholders in all stockmarkets around the world- they are getting greedy to the point that they will destroy a company in order to earn a few pennies extra- for doing nothing at all.

See "P&O" (on the London Exchange) on how to destroy a healthy company by shareholder greed alone. Gaming companies have this modern greed to deal with as well- The idea of long term growth for any British (at least) company is now dead and buried, as the sword of shareholders hangs over them.

As someone who's never owned a share, I've noticed companies work to the next quarterly statement now - that's all.

Enough!, back to the game: :-)

I like the idea about a scorched-earth policy, we all know Russian people suffered/died from it, yet the paranoid Stalin was ultimately right in so doing at the time- it is the only thing he did right, ever.

Toby

	05-08-2005 06:02									#247
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"tech-demo" and a "thread-necromancer"? Good question.

Let's see. 'Tech demo' sounds like a game with very little substance that relies on fan modding to actually make a game of it. 'Thread necromancer': I'm guessing it's a role-playing game (RPG in Nerdese(tm)) term. Well, necromancer is a sort of wizard that makes spells that deal with the dead, including raising the dead. So, I'd guess it would be someone who brings old threads back to life.

Back on-topic:
I don't see any real use for adding a "scorched-earth" feature. We already have pillaging which accomplishes the same thing as scorching the earth. Plus, I like how Civ 3 doesn't let you use enemy roads/rails. I think that is pretty good for slowing-down those lightning-fast blitzes from Civs 1 & 2.

	07-08-2005 01:38									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Sava unfortunately, the passage of time is the problem with CIV games, I'd like to see a system more like HoI and Eu2 where the passage of time is more realistic. That way, moving a unit across a large area doesn't take 200 years.

or mod the game with the editor

	07-08-2005 17:01									#249
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I hope to see a change in the required resources for Railroads.

You need Iron and Coal in Civ 3 to build Railroads.
This doesn´t change over time.

IMHO it would be better, to allow the construction of Railroads also with Oil and Iron as soon as Combustion is discovered.
After all the next step after steam engines were Diesel engines and you would expect someone who has no coal but lots of oil, to use this instead to power his railroad engines (AFAIK there were even steam engines which worked with oil rather then coal ).

It´s a bad thing if you have no coal in your empire, but lots of oil and nevertheless are not able to build railroads

	07-08-2005 18:43									#250
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The same counts for oil then over time. At least in my part of the world most trains work on electricity nowadays.

	07-08-2005 20:09									#251
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As far as I know, Coal is needed when processing iron ore into steel. Maybe that's the point why railroads need both iron and coal. I'm not completely sure about this though.

	07-08-2005 20:55									#252
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder The same counts for oil then over time. At least in my part of the world most trains work on electricity nowadays.

Yep, would be a nice Idea for a new Civilization Advance: "Electrical Engine" which allows you to build Railroads with Iron alone.

quote: Originally posted by kofeiini As far as I know, Coal is needed when processing iron ore into steel. Maybe that's the point why railroads need both iron and coal. I'm not completely sure about this though.

That´s correct, but if this were the reason why you need Coal to build Railroads, you shouldn´t be able to build them before the discovery of the advance "Steel" (which is located 3 steps after "steam engine" within the tech-tree of Civ 3)

	07-08-2005 21:09									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST That´s correct, but if this were the reason why you need Coal to build Railroads, you shouldn´t be able to build them before the discovery of the advance "Steel" (which is located 3 steps after "steam engine" within the tech-tree of Civ 3)

Ahh, of course. I never thought of that.

	08-08-2005 02:56									#254
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Xorbon,

Thanks for utterly failing to reply to the question, still, at least you tried.

All,

The way ramdom resources appear and then vanish in Civ 3 is most frustrating, UK Coal reserves are 400 years, they don't simply vanish on an AI whim, they are still sort of stuck in the UK!

If each resourse was determined at set-up and then remained there- good- it allows for planning; planning an invasion for Iron as they won't sell it is bonkers if half way through it vanishes.

Selling weapon materiale to friends and not to others is fine- but at least let the nation have it long enough to matter in order to be able to get good relations, once you reach a deal, going from 22-70 in short order isn't to good either.

A resource on the map should be fixed once it appears in each epoch, the negotiations need fixing as well- by a whole new approach to the game.

	08-08-2005 03:45									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Thanks for utterly failing to reply to the question, still, at least you tried.

I was hoping someone would correct me, because I was curious what those terms meant, too.

And I didn't fail to reply. I failed to give a correct answer.

	08-08-2005 23:00									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST IMHO it would be better, to allow the construction of Railroads also with Oil and Iron as soon as Combustion is discovered. After all the next step after steam engines were Diesel engines and you would expect someone who has no coal but lots of oil, to use this instead to power his railroad engines (AFAIK there were even steam engines which worked with oil rather then coal ). It´s a bad thing if you have no coal in your empire, but lots of oil and nevertheless are not able to build railroads

could not agree more

tied in with the following idea

quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST That´s correct, but if this were the reason why you need Coal to build Railroads, you shouldn´t be able to build them before the discovery of the advance "Steel" (which is located 3 steps after "steam engine" within the tech-tree of Civ 3)

a few more

I am going to look at the C4 tech tree again

	10-08-2005 05:04									#257
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Steam engines can also burn wood. Nowhere near as many BTU, but it works until you get your hands on something better.

	10-08-2005 14:32									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST That´s correct, but if this were the reason why you need Coal to build Railroads, you shouldn´t be able to build them before the discovery of the advance "Steel" (which is located 3 steps after "steam engine" within the tech-tree of Civ 3)

How strange- given that steel preceded the development of the steam engine.

quote: The way ramdom resources appear and then vanish in Civ 3 is most frustrating,

Toby Rowe


It's simply reflecting what happens in real life- silver, gold and tin deposits in the Mediterranean could be exhausted or at least mined out as far as the existing technology was concerned- so the Phoenicians could be prompted to look further afield than Spain or Cyprus, say to Cornwall or at least the trade routes that brought Cornish tin to Massilia.

	23-08-2005 06:50									#259
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Ok Molly,

Using the analysis is ignoring facts.

The UK has had Coal since coal was formed- certainly each mine that is closed loses the reserve on those seams forever, once the pumps are shut down. I think we still have about 10 mines left.

Tin and the Romans? I think Thatcher only ensursed the last Cornish tin mine closed in the 1990's, If you want White Gold, I think the last Welsh gold mine only closed in the last few years- even the Royal Family must now look elsewhere for the wedding band.

If you want a working holiday you organise yourself, you can go gold panning in the Scotish and Welsh highlands, in Spring you'll get about £60 per day (apparently).

The same UK resources have never been mined out, whether high-quality clay for pottery upto white gold, we've simply stopped mining them to a large extent.

Problem is, in the modern world, low prices for tin 10 years ago would now translate into high prices as China has nicked our jobs and now needs the metals badly, so all metals are at a premium as the Europe/US jobs vanish.
Once a deep coal mine et al is closed, you can't re-open it- ever.

Perhaps that is why I get so annoyed Civ 3 has such a cavalier attitude towards resources....

Toby

	23-08-2005 09:20									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow Steam engines can also burn wood. Nowhere near as many BTU, but it works until you get your hands on something better.

another reason to "chop"

quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Perhaps that is why I get so annoyed Civ 3 has such a cavalier attitude towards resources.... Toby

why is there such an assumption among civ players that the series actually mirrors reality...

talk about click fest

	23-08-2005 10:04									#261
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Because we view a serious game like Civ as mirroring the world we know- Civ and Civ 2 wern't fantasy games, but Civ 2 stretched it on resources.

If you create a game designed to mirror reality, expect people to get annoyed when a developer takes the piss.

Toby

PS- If you ever played any of the SimCity series did you really like a steel robot mucking up your city that you lovingly made? Funny? Not!

Last edited by Toby Rowe on 23-08-2005 at 10:11

	23-08-2005 13:43									#262
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder The same counts for oil then over time. At least in my part of the world most trains work on electricity nowadays.

electricity? diesels are used in the U.S. (aside from light rail and subways etc)

in that case, combustion and steel should give the ability to build railroads. Diesel isn't exactly combustion, but you get my drift.

	24-08-2005 10:00									#263
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Molly, hand-forged steel came before steam. Mass produced, high quality steel came in the late 1800s.

	24-08-2005 15:06									#264
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not to brake out the big spoon

Toby

so once we start getting to larger cityies that have sky-scrappers, should the tech requirement be rivets like the real world first did?

could be entertaining,
but what effect on the overall game play be?


thank you for your time

	25-08-2005 01:09									#265
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Skimmed this long thread and haven’t been part of the larger discussion in some months. Has someone previously proposed the concept of rail cars, meaning actual trains as a unit? The trains would be the only unit that could move infinitely on RR, but would have a limited loading capacity. And they could only be produced from cities that build, say, a rail yard. This would consolidate many of the concerns I’ve skimmed over.

Secondly as I’ve been out of the loop: what is to become of rails in Civ IV? I don't recall reading anything about this* in the articles posted.

*or diplomacy. But file that under "Different Can of Worms."

	26-08-2005 00:34									#266
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there is a screenie that shows woods going through a RR

rail cars...so simple.....where was my brain

what say everyone else

	26-08-2005 01:42									#267
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quote: what say everyone else?

Something else, no doubt.

	26-08-2005 01:44									#268
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rail cars is a good concept, I'm just not sure if everyone want the added micromanagement in exchange for more realism. I'm not that big on it myself.

	26-08-2005 14:56									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Ok Molly, Using the analysis is ignoring facts.

Which analysis ?

Are you suggesting that mineral resources are never exhausted or worked out ?


I have been to South Wales, many times, and to the remains of Roman lead mines and gold mines in Wales and the West Country.

I've also been to Cornwall many times, especially Penwith, and have been in the Geevor mine.


I've also been to the goldfields in Victoria, and I'm sure you realise there's a big difference between gold seams underground which need to be mined, and panning for gold in mountain streams.

quote: Molly, hand-forged steel came before steam. Mass produced, high quality steel came in the late 1800s.

Straybow


? I'm unaware of suggesting anything different. However the Bessemer process was created in 1855.

The Newcomen steam engine dates from the early part of the 18th Century, Watt's improvements from the latter part of the 18th Century, and the Stockton-Darlington line opened in 1825, and the Liverpool to Manchester line 5 years later.

	26-08-2005 15:26									#270
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I am one of those persons who just like infinite railroad. Is is especially fun in extra large worlds where you can just use the goto button and voila, it is on the scene!

So, I chose the civ3 model because I realise that it would be otherwise to easy to conquer an enemy, like in civ2.