30-01-2005 04:58									#31
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I concur. I didn't even find the graphics that great either.

	30-01-2005 05:24									#32
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I agree too. It was a well-polished mediocrity though.

	30-01-2005 15:21									#33
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Damn, it isn't controversial if people have the temerity to agree!

	30-01-2005 16:58									#34
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You need to be less reasonable, Spikie.

	30-01-2005 17:08									#35
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I want to add "Nexus : The Jupiter Incident" to my list. I strongly reccommend this Hungarian production as a real under-the-radar space combat game.

I think there was some kind of development history from hell, still no US release and no publicity at all, but this was a 2004 release, in Europe at least, that will be staying on my HD for a while.

Thanks to Geomodder for the "heads-up".

-Jam

	30-01-2005 18:15									#36
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I think Doom3 was great, for the reasons so many dislike it exactly. It was what I wanted, a classic FPS - no 20 weapons with 2 fire modes each and tons of stuff to use, just classic FPS, like the original Doom or Quake. Excellent. And I just played Doom3 after HL2... and damn, Doom3 is still the best looking game IMO, without any contest, even though HL2 environments are far more beautiful, etc., Doom3 actually looks real.

	30-01-2005 18:35									#37
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I agree that Doom3 was a throwback to SP Doom and Quake, with prettier graphics.

This is not a good thing. The genre has moved on, and frankly I expected more from Doom3.

	30-01-2005 21:29									#38
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Then your expectations were wrong. Doom3 has always been promised to be what it was, a classic-style SP FPS game, not a new-style game like HL2 or whatever. I see it as a great thing. The genre has moved in, but IMO, it's usually quantity vs. quality, and with games providing too many weapons and stuff, the overall quality is low. I loved HL2, but can't really think of any other shooter in the recent years that I really liked. Another thing I don't like is how shooters are, these days, orientated too much towards MP, with little regard for quality SP experience. That's where the old Dooms ruled, I still play the classic Doom SP time to time, and I know that many other players do... whereas in most recent shooters, this aspect is neglected.

	30-01-2005 21:47									#39
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I've only played Doom 1 (or was it 2?) one time for the past 6 years, and that was for MP deathmatch

	30-01-2005 23:05									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Then your expectations were wrong. Doom3 has always been promised to be what it was, a classic-style SP FPS game, not a new-style game like HL2 or whatever. I see it as a great thing. The genre has moved in, but IMO, it's usually quantity vs. quality, and with games providing too many weapons and stuff, the overall quality is low. I loved HL2, but can't really think of any other shooter in the recent years that I really liked. Another thing I don't like is how shooters are, these days, orientated too much towards MP, with little regard for quality SP experience. That's where the old Dooms ruled, I still play the classic Doom SP time to time, and I know that many other players do... whereas in most recent shooters, this aspect is neglected.

Yeah, I expect more from a sequel to a landmark game such as Doom. I expected it to raise the bar, not drag it down to the level it was a few years ago, ignoring general advances in the genre and offering none of its own.

For your useage, classic just means jaded and uninspired.

Overall I'm being quite critical due to what the game could have been. In truth it's not that bad........it's just not that distinguishable from any number of other decent but uninspired FPS games.

	30-01-2005 23:10									#41
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Let me be controversial and say that the year 2004 never really happened.

	31-01-2005 00:17									#42
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quote: Yeah, I expect more from a sequel to a landmark game such as Doom. I expected it to raise the bar, not drag it down to the level it was a few years ago, ignoring general advances in the genre and offering none of its own. For your useage, classic just means jaded and uninspired. Overall I'm being quite critical due to what the game could have been. In truth it's not that bad........it's just not that distinguishable from any number of other decent but uninspired FPS games.

For me, classic means like 1994-1999. If you call that uninspired, fine. Doom3, IMO, is distinguishable exactly because it does not attempt to do anything special with gameplay, like all the "inspired" FPS games try to, and which is why they tend to suck.

	31-01-2005 00:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Solver For me, classic means like 1994-1999. If you call that uninspired, fine. Doom3, IMO, is distinguishable exactly because it does not attempt to do anything special with gameplay

Hmm yes, that is a worthy goal.

	31-01-2005 01:00									#44
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Indeed it is. Trying to do something special with the gameplay in a FPS seems to detract from the fun factor in most cases. The fun in FPS lies in the action itself. While most games that try to do something generally detract from the action, which is why I haven't had as much fun with most "modern" FPS games as with Doom3.

	31-01-2005 01:03									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Hmm yes, that is a worthy goal.

just because something is new doesn't make it good.

some of the best games of all time were released during the period specified.

SMAC, Civ2, X-com 1, Master of Magic, I think moo2 was released back then as well (I have never played it). And of course doom2 and Halflife was also released during that time period.

	31-01-2005 03:20									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Indeed it is. Trying to do something special with the gameplay in a FPS seems to detract from the fun factor in most cases. The fun in FPS lies in the action itself. While most games that try to do something generally detract from the action, which is why I haven't had as much fun with most "modern" FPS games as with Doom3.

I agree about the action being the fun. However, Doom3's action is repetitive and quite dull when compared to games that have taken the genre forward.

I'm not criticising sticking to amazing core gameplay, and not fixing what isn't broke, I'm criticising regressing core gameplay out of what appears to be laziness.

And, Diss, my worthy goal comment was not aimed at the time period (many great games were of course released), rather at the "does not attempt to do anything special with gameplay". It really shows.

It's a playable game. It's just it could have been so much more.

	31-01-2005 03:25									#47
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Doc, I think it would help if you listed some of the changes have been made to FPSs that make them more fun.

	31-01-2005 03:26									#48
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quote: I agree about the action being the fun. However, Doom3's action is repetitive and quite dull when compared to games that have taken the genre forward.

Agreed about that repetitiveness... then again, with gameplay that involves shooting without solving puzzles, RPG elements, sophisticated story or whatnot, it can only be repetitive. To be honest, I think it's a question of expectations. I loved Doom3 because it was exactly what I expected. I expected 20 hours of intense shooting action with great graphics and few, if any, places to get stuck at - which is what I got.

However, yes, advanced gameplay can be done well. This is why HL2 has my overall FPS award, because it did have the advanced gameplay elements, and they actually worked, and also good that HL2 avoided the mistake of including a record-high number of weapons just for the heck of it.

	31-01-2005 03:43									#49
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I think that is one thing that hurt Halo 2. Why do you need two snipers that do the exact same thing, but look different?

	31-01-2005 03:58									#50
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I haven't played Halo 2, but I think that hurt many games indeed. Heck, even the original Half-Life and expansions. Good weapon balance is, IMO, when you have a number of weapons with very clear advantages and disadvantages and each for its own situation. Done perfectly in HL2:

Crowbar - HL tradition, melee, used for breaking stuff, last resort.
Gravgun - well, this one's special, used for anything.
9mm pistol - the usual pistol, good for weak enemies or when low on ammo
Magnum - very powerful and accurate, big recoil, slow fire rate, very slow reload, rare ammo.
SMG - somewhat accurate, somewhat powerful, very good fire rate, tons of ammo for it. Too inaccurate for long range. Grenades for it are rare and powerful for medium range.
Pulse rifle - accurate on short-medium range, very powerful, very good fire rate, small clip, only holds one extra clip. Secondary fire mode orbs very powerful, rare, and hard to use.
Shotgun - extremely powerful on close range, extremely weak at long range, long reload, not too good fire rate.
Crossbow - extremely powerful, comes with a good zoom scope, very slow fire rate, rare ammo, somewhat hard to hit moving targets
Grenades - as always, useful in certain tactical situations, can only carry 5, enemies actually aware of them, so they're not easy to use.
RPG - extremely powerful, the only way to kill some enemies, with ammo only found in a few spots.

That's very good weapon balance, IMO, each weapon has its own distinct use. SMG and the pulse rifle are somewhat similar, but are still different enough, because of power, clip size and the quantity of ammo that can be found.

	31-01-2005 04:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Agreed about that repetitiveness... then again, with gameplay that involves shooting without solving puzzles, RPG elements, sophisticated story or whatnot, it can only be repetitive.

Glad we hammered that out, because here is where we disagree. Done well, like in Far Cry, Half life, Halo, Half life 2 (probably my favourite 4 FPS games) its all action (as you like) and not at all repetitive, due to good game design. They also have far better stories, which makes them more immersive.

In comparison Doom3 is decent, and worth playing, but is closer to the 'pack' of decent, playable, but not that memorable FPS games. There are already enough of those, and I really wanted Doom3 to be more.

	31-01-2005 05:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio Ok, maybe I don't exactly remember the titles found in the "cheap" section, but one thing you shouldn't do is google: "soccer moms" "birthday massacre" (with the "s) and open the second page it finds... DO NOT DO THAT!

As for 2004 games, mmm, I don't know... I recently bought Pirates! but have not installed it yet. Since no one here mentioned it, I guess it sucks.

	31-01-2005 08:54									#53
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Halo 2 had these weapons:

Plasma Grenade (Grenades that stick)
Frag Grenade (Just Normal)
Plasma Pistol (Weak gun. You can charge it up for a more powerful shot)
Pistol (Good firepower, bad at medium-long range)
SMG (Normal machine gun, very fast, lots of ammo)
Fists (Just for Melee)
Assault Rifle (Shoots in short bursts. Has a small zoom.)
Covenant Carbine (Assault Rifle equivalent)
Sniper Rifle (A sniper with 10x zoom)
Covenant Sniper Rifle (Sniper Rifle equivalent)
Plasma Rifle (SMG equivalent)
Brute Plasma Rifle (A more powerful SMG equivalent)
Beam Gun (Shoots beams)
Electric Sword (Well, a sword)
Needler (Shoots needles with a bit of homing on it)
Brute Shot (Grenade Launcher)
Rocket Launcher (Shoots rocket and can home in on vehicles)
Fuel Rod Gun (It's weird, impossible to describe)

I think that is it.

	31-01-2005 16:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Alex As for 2004 games, mmm, I don't know... I recently bought Pirates! but have not installed it yet. Since no one here mentioned it, I guess it sucks.

There is a thread about it (or at least there was... I have no idea how long time since last post)
The game only lasted a few weeks before it became repeative. The most fun part in the game were also the most annoying part in the game (the land battles) because you were forced to view very slow animations

	31-01-2005 17:43									#55
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Pc games I got:

Pirates! : Ok, fun for a while, I'll go back to it one of these days after burning out on Hoi2

RCT3- Haven't played in a while, didn't run well on my machine, maybe patching would help.

R:TW: Played a bit, but won't again until it has a patch. If its never patched, it will go right next to MoO3 on the shelf.


I think I got some others, especially console (ps2, gc, gba), but I forget now.