03-02-2005 06:45									#91
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Nationalize the freight rail tracks? You're insane.

	03-02-2005 08:05									#92
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Nationalize all the tracks period so they're just like the roads. Then we have multiple carriers all bidding for frieght and passenger services and we'd have a federal agency some what like the FAA which would schedule trains so that accidents were avoided but use of the track is maximized.

We'd have a ton more competetion and lower prices. You could even charge your user fees you were pining over.

	03-02-2005 08:16									#93
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Bah! You truly are insane!

Basically, what you're suggesting is a complete reworking of the entire rail system for the sake of passenger rail, only a tiny portion of the traffic.

	03-02-2005 08:18									#94
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You would have called Ike insane.

	03-02-2005 09:04									#95
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Bah! You truly are insane! Basically, what you're suggesting is a complete reworking of the entire rail system for the sake of passenger rail, only a tiny portion of the traffic.

No, what I'm suggesting is a better way to promote greater competetion in all forms of rail service. Right now railroads are a natural monopoly where only one freight or passanger provider works in a given region. That means there is no direct competetion. By having rail tracks treated the same as roads we could have as many rail providers as we have airlines so we'd increase the level of competetion dramatically.

Shouldn't that be the goal? Lower prices and more competetion?

	03-02-2005 09:07									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin ...competetion ... competetion... competetion... competetion

j/k

	03-02-2005 09:11									#97
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Alright it has an i instead of an e.

	03-02-2005 09:21									#98
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quote: Our current right-of-ways aren't straight enough for the bullet trains. In order to create the straight tracks, you would have to buy out every homeowner between Washington and Boston and then the environmentalists would be suing the government at every turn because the train is disturbing this or that. We're talking extreme amounts of money.

Could build tracks over houses.

Hey. I didn't say it would be easy either.

	03-02-2005 09:33									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's not much slower. And the clogging of highways is minimal. Certainly much better than cars. If people want a faster trip, they can fly.

The point is that a sufficiently funded rail network can be so much more efficient than a bus network, and more environment friendly.

Another problem in America is that gas isn't sold at its 'true' price, namely that its price doesn't reflect environmental costs and the loss of efficiency due to traffic. In France for instance it costs significantly more to fill your car than to buy a train ticket.

	03-02-2005 09:36									#100
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If they cut subsidies on rail, why not cut them on air and highways as well? We could stop spending $200,000,000,000 so that we could have cheap gasoline by killing Iraqis.

	03-02-2005 09:53									#101
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quote: The point is that a sufficiently funded rail network can be so much more efficient than a bus network, and more environment friendly.

It would be tough to compete against a $35 round trip fair Washington <-> NYC. Even with fully-burdened fuel prices to fund retirement of the externalities, the prices wouldn't be much higher.

quote: Shouldn't that be the goal? Lower prices and more competetion?

Yes, but there's got to be better ways using much less direct government involvement.

	03-02-2005 09:58									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It would be tough to compete against a $35 round trip fair Washington <-> NYC.

It depends on the kind of involvement you're willing to put in. When I was in France I got a Paris-Bordeaux return trip for 40 euros - that's 800km, twice.

I'm curious to know though, is the SNCF a money-drainer?

	03-02-2005 12:25									#103
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What really needs to be used as a comparison for rail however isn't buses or any other mass transit- it's driving.

It's about 300 miles on the road from NY to DC, with four toll sections (Hudson River, NJ Turnpike, Delaware River, Baltimore Harbor) Total toll I recall being around $20 each way. Assuming a gas mileage of 20 mpg and gas costing $2 a gallon, that's $30 for gas each way. For a typical weekend trip or business convention, two days of parking will run about $50.

Therefore, a round trip from NY-DC by car weighs in at $150, assuming single occupancy.

That's the price that rail needs to beat. Can it be done in the NE Corridor? Quite likely.

	03-02-2005 12:51									#104
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think he means the rail lines.

Wait, the tracks are privately owned, and the public company operates them?

Edit: after reading this thread it strikes me that DanS is defending a system of private monopolies. Rail tracks are indeed a huge investment, and it's prohibitive to attempt to challenge a local monopoly. I thought free-marketeers were supposed to like competition, but I guess the love of private corporations sometimes surpasses the love of competition.

	03-02-2005 13:00									#105
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This shouldn't be about love of private companies or love of competition- it should be about love of getting from point A to B cheap and fast. That's why the Japanese rail system works so well, both under public and private management.

	03-02-2005 13:04									#106
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yes, but there's got to be better ways using much less direct government involvement.

There is one, that doesn't involve direct nationalization: force by law the freight companies to split between a company that owns the tracks and one that operates them. And force the company that owns tracks to lease it to everybody for the same price, thus levelling the field. But then you'll have the usual headaches that have been seen in Britain in the times of Railtrack: sloppy maintenance, lack of vision.

State owned tracks are much better, because the State understands its role as supplier of externalities. When a State manages infrastructure, it generally doesn't attempt at making a direct profit out of it, knowing that a good (cheap) use of the infrastructure will result in greater growth and eventual tax dollars.

	03-02-2005 14:26									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It depends on the kind of involvement you're willing to put in. When I was in France I got a Paris-Bordeaux return trip for 40 euros - that's 800km, twice. I'm curious to know though, is the SNCF a money-drainer?

The SNCF is a money drainer because it has to manage plenty of regional lines that have few customers. The TGV lines (among which Paris-Bordeaux, which I take regularily, although I have never had such a huge rebate ) are the profitable ones. Thanks to the TGV lines, the SNCF is much less subsidized as it would be otherwise.

Currently, the SNCF earns as much as the salary mass (well, it may be a bit more now, since there have been attempts at raising the profitability for some years). The rest is subsidized.

	03-02-2005 14:36									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor State owned tracks are much better, because the State understands its role as supplier of externalities. When a State manages infrastructure, it generally doesn't attempt at making a direct profit out of it, knowing that a good (cheap) use of the infrastructure will result in greater growth and eventual tax dollars.

True, but the prices in the US are pretty cheap I think (maybe that's just on the west coast or something). People just don't want to ride the train. Why? I don't know.

	03-02-2005 14:40									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley This shouldn't be about love of private companies or love of competition- it should be about love of getting from point A to B cheap and fast.

Which is precisely why I oppose privatization of French rail . French rail has an outstanding quality of service (second only to Japan's), and there is absolutely no need to privatize it.

Since the network is heavily used where trains are the "natural" transportation system (commuters in densely populated city, inter-big-city transportation), you can't really have more customers, except on small regional lines, which require individual attention. But you can lose customers bigtime. If you raise prices (what the SNCF has begun to do, although prices evolve both ways) and reduce staff, the price/quality ratio sinks, and people will prefer other modes of transportation, which are on the lookout. Heck, even my fanatical pro-train self recently took the plane between Paris and Toulouse, because the plane cost me the same and took 1 hour instead of 5.

Fortunately, our privatization planners aren't as stupid as the German ones, and we won't see quality sink instantly to abysmal levels. But the attempts at making the SNCF profitable are progressively worsening the quality indeed

	03-02-2005 14:43									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley What really needs to be used as a comparison for rail however isn't buses or any other mass transit- it's driving. It's about 300 miles on the road from NY to DC, with four toll sections (Hudson River, NJ Turnpike, Delaware River, Baltimore Harbor) Total toll I recall being around $20 each way. Assuming a gas mileage of 20 mpg and gas costing $2 a gallon, that's $30 for gas each way. For a typical weekend trip or business convention, two days of parking will run about $50. Therefore, a round trip from NY-DC by car weighs in at $150, assuming single occupancy. That's the price that rail needs to beat. Can it be done in the NE Corridor? Quite likely.

You have to figure depreciation of your car too.

	03-02-2005 15:43									#111
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quote: Another problem in America is that gas isn't sold at its 'true' price, namely that its price doesn't reflect environmental costs and the loss of efficiency due to traffic. In France for instance it costs significantly more to fill your car than to buy a train ticket.

Yeah that and the costs of building highways that the cars are driving on and the cost of people getting sick from breathing in exhaust.

I love the Korean public transportation system, the Seoul subway system is great, there's buses absolutely everywhere and the new KTX train is one of the fastest in the world. Not bad for a country that makes me pay 3% of my paycheck in taxes.

	03-02-2005 16:44									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Fortunately, our privatization planners aren't as stupid as the German ones, and we won't see quality sink instantly to abysmal levels.

Sad but true what you say about the german Railroad System.

I don´t even exactly know why the quality has dropped to these levels.
I think it was a lack of foresight combined with pricaes far too high.

It seems to me that after Privatization, the Deutsche Bahn AG has spent a lot of money in Prestige Objects, like some Prestige Railroad Stations (Köln and Dresden fore example) which include Shops and are very High Tech and the ICE-Lines (our High Speed Trains)
but that it neglected other things like the tracks themselves or "normal" stations and lines and also didn´t take into account that the Engines themselves get older and one day have to be replaced.

Now we have reliable ICE-Lines (which only few people use, because they are so expensive) but commuter trains which often are late, some shiny High-Tech Railway stations and a lot of stations, which are dirty and decayed.

To only privatize the mobile Equipment, while stationary equipment like tracks and stations are handled by the government sounds like a much better alternative.

	03-02-2005 20:53									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You have to figure depreciation of your car too.

That'd only be an issue if people who ride the trains don't own cars.

	03-02-2005 20:56									#114
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quote: Wait, the tracks are privately owned, and the public company operates them?

Almost all of the tracks are privately owned and run freight. Amtrak runs passengers on these lines from time to time and pays the private company fees for use of these tracks.

The private company is obliged by law to give Amtrak access to the tracks and to give the passenger trains higher priority than freight.

But it's important to note that the amount of freight running on these lines dwarfs the number of passengers. It's completely opposite of what you have in Europe, for instance. Freight rail keeps trucks off the road.

	03-02-2005 21:21									#115
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quote: Originally posted by DanS But it's important to note that the amount of freight running on these lines dwarfs the number of passengers. It's completely opposite of what you have in Europe, for instance. Freight rail keeps trucks off the road.

DanS is right about this, the EU15 had passenger journeys of 303bn passenger-km in 2000 compared to the US's 8bn, but the amount of freight shifted was vastly more in the US (2093bn tonne-km compared to 254bn in the EU15)

	03-02-2005 21:24									#116
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On our Tri-Rail system here in South-East Florida, freight has priority over passagers. In Chicago, passangers have priority over freight on Metra.

	03-02-2005 22:39									#117
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quote: Originally posted by DanS At a minimum, the user fees cover federal government involvement in these industries.

How do you figure? When I pay my road user fee (I.E. my car registration) I pay the state not the federal government. The state gets additional money from the fed as a bribe to keep following federal laws. It is a subsidy which the state never has to repay.

	03-02-2005 22:41									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley That'd only be an issue if people who ride the trains don't own cars.

Huh? First, some people who ride the train don't own cars, but what does that have to do with people who do own cars. Why wouldn't they consider the depreciation of the cars?

	03-02-2005 22:50									#119
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quote: How do you figure? When I pay my road user fee (I.E. my car registration) I pay the state not the federal government. The state gets additional money from the fed as a bribe to keep following federal laws. It is a subsidy which the state never has to repay.

The federal government collects $0.184 per gallon of gasoline in taxes. Each state sets its own taxes above and beyond the federal taxes. For instance, California collects an additional $0.18 per gallon. Here is a good state list.

http://taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts...345&Topic2id=90

These federal user fees are more or less distributed to fund the freeways. But the gasoline user fees also fund rail and other public transportation.

	03-02-2005 23:02									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley That's why the Japanese rail system works so well, both under public and private management.

I have to agree with this. The Japanese have a rail system everyone should envy because the state has paid massive amounts of money to insure every city in Japan has the best possible rail service. I could get an express train from Narita to Tokyo which traveled 80 miles, cost $10, and took like 35 minutes. That is the system we should be aiming for.

They've been talking about building such a system in California for 20 years but nothing ever seems to get done. Even Arnie keeps making nice noises about the California High Speed Rail Network but he has yet to order any lines be constructed.