14-02-2005 23:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Thank you Ned - a fairly simple, elegant solution. Now a question for you - the biggest clunker. In either party could we find the constituency to push this? I have my own suspiciions, but I will admit that working for the government has caused me to become very jaded about large corporations and regulatory agencies, as in the big corporations like them because they can so routinely manipulate the regulation process to keep smaller companies out.

I think the largest protest will come from the "small inventors" who basically are the patent litigation bar. Now, you ask me which party supports and which party opposes fraudulent litigation?

	15-02-2005 10:41									#32
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Ned - I have watched the FAA put airlines out of business. It's well documented but hidden, you have to know the implications of certain regulatory actions - the case involved People's Express during the Reagan administration. I can explain it in about three paragraphs if you would like, it was really cute.

Which party supports cutting regulatory agencies, i.e. how are you going to find competent patent examiners without private sector pay and workloads? Again, this is maybe a Republican position? How about the policy of increasing fees to be funded by the affected industry, making the cost prohibitive for small inventors?

Plus which party favors lack of anti-trust enforcement, i.e. look at who initiated anti-trust actions against Microsoft, one of the worst offenders at abusing market position to move into new areas and eliminate opposition. Stacker, Netscape (which was actually over Server Software and the market penetration of browsers determining which would be purchased), word processors (Word Perfect, remember them?), et al. Don't take my word for it, look at the EU as well as substantial articles in the IT press.

Please note that the litigation issue that the Democrats are blamed for is not in the patent area - find me cites from sources better than the Washington Times, as a pre-caveat - but in the areas of liability, personal injury, and class action lawsuits. One of the effects of the new class action lawsuits will be to reduce states rights, one of the purported holy grails of the Neocons. Unless, however, it is inconvenient for one of their constituencies, i.e. large corporations. As I mentioned both parties, 19 Democrats broke ranks out of 45 on this legislation, so this is a semi-bipartisan issue, though since all the Republican Senators voted for it, versus less than 50% of the Democrats.

However, to keep on topic, small inventors are a constituency for whom? Small businessmen and entrepeneurs are solidly Republican, yet most Neocon legislation favors medium - large size businesses. Unless the Republican Party can return to the Barry Goldwater day roots, small inventors will find the Republican party at least as hostile, if not more so, than the Democratic party in reigning in patent abuse.

	15-02-2005 12:36									#33
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During the Clinton admin, patent law reform to reduce abuses was championed by the Democrats and resisted by the radical right. Go figure.

	15-02-2005 13:48									#34
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Ned - that's my point, and thank you for the fact, I freely admit I don't watch patent law closely. The only field I know enough about it to have a nuanced discussion is biology. I can follow programming enough to make a general contribution in that area. For every IBM - who I will admit is probably one of the best examples of how a large company can be a patent holder and a good citizen reference intellectual properties, you will find a Microsoft and Monsanto (plant genome squatting).

The Republican party has been hijacked by the religious right and that loosely defined group of people known as Neocons. If you look at legislation they champion, it almost never benefits the small businessman (reference your comment about the Democrats championing patent reform in the 1990s), except coincidentally when it helps larger corporations. I am not opposed to certain kinds of help for larger US based corporations, I believe firmly that Bush adminstration(s) and Clinton singlehandedly pretty much destroyed the aviation industry in this country by rolling over and playing dead on the Airbus, Eurocopter, and Rolls Royce (engines) issues.

But the direct corporate welfare, aka Haliburton and DOD (which was already going on prior to Cheney, so this is bipartisan) which pisses away taxpayer money, or another example being farm subsidies which have minimal benefit to the hypothetical small family farm, are both good examples where the system helps the large companies. Haliburton acted as a contract holder while subcontracting a substantial amount, meaning they took a cut while providing minimal services. That hurts the real small business, cutting out part of their profit margin. Those small businesses are the real drivers of the US economy, and those are the ones that need some of the help the larger corporations get.

	16-02-2005 01:20									#35
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Shawn, you got it 100% backwards. It was the radical right defending the small inventors and small business. It was the Dems and particularly the Clinton admin that favored reforms that protected big business.

	16-02-2005 03:46									#36
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Actually, Ned - the radical right, to use the term precisely, are those who espouse change in the right direction. A conservative wishes to maintain the status quo. The so-called traditional Republicans were the ones who believed in small inventors and small businesses. If you look at the people in control of the current Republican party, and the various legislation and tax cuts proposed (looking at actions, not platitudes) the current Republican party leadership is very much the party of large corporations. By the way, Clinton was also very favorable to them, and the backlash by the Greens was one of the critical factors costing Gore the election (note - one of mutlipe but still critical, the man snatched defeat from the jaws of victory).

	16-02-2005 09:49									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Okay, so they're not going to vote on this now? Why is this a good thing for you?

Let me reply this question with a quote from Mr Gates himself:

quote: "If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today...A future start-up with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose."

link

IOW, he once realised software patents stifle progress.

	16-02-2005 09:54									#38
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That's funny, I don't see him mention software patents at all.

What I do see him mention is the ridiculousness of the patent process today.

It's kinda funny how that was my point all along?

	16-02-2005 10:01									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the central problem is that in our system we have ex parte prosecution, no opposition and a presumption of validity. I personally would recognize that ex parte examinations are not exhaustive and lead to problem patents. We should attach a presumption of validity only to patents that have been subject to an opposition and that an opposition must be conducted before a patent can be prosecuted in court.

That's a good solution. In addition, make it a requirement that a working prototype is required before a patent can be considered. That is going to eliminate huge piles of applications, particularly the bunk ones such as various incarnations of perpetual motion machines.

One more problem I think is the USPTO should stick with the requirement that a patent must be inobvious. For example, for the online shop application I wrote I sort the list of prior purchases for each customer by frequency. That is, the more times somebody buys something, the higher a ranking it gets. Quite obvious, you would think, but so is one-click purchase (I am waiting for Amazon to sue me now ).

	16-02-2005 10:02									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's funny, I don't see him mention software patents at all.

Did you notice he mentioned "the industry?" What industry could he be possibly referring to?

	16-02-2005 10:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Did you notice he mentioned "the industry?" What industry could he be possibly referring to?

Learn to read and discover the big picture:

His beef in that quote is not the concept of software patents, but the process of how they are granted.

Honestly, UR, you really need to go back to the basics and understand what the hell is being said.

	16-02-2005 10:09									#42
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And for the record, RMS is a total nutcase. Nothing he says has any credibility as far as I'm concerned.

His picture says it all:

	16-02-2005 10:15									#43
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And because I'm exceptionally generous, I'm going to help you and your friend RMS with some basic reading comprehension:

"how patents would be granted" describes a process, not the patents themselves.

It's a shame RMS still doesn't know how to read, and better yet that he wrote his article based around that excerpt...

	16-02-2005 18:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Actually, Ned - the radical right, to use the term precisely, are those who espouse change in the right direction. A conservative wishes to maintain the status quo. The so-called traditional Republicans were the ones who believed in small inventors and small businesses. If you look at the people in control of the current Republican party, and the various legislation and tax cuts proposed (looking at actions, not platitudes) the current Republican party leadership is very much the party of large corporations. By the way, Clinton was also very favorable to them, and the backlash by the Greens was one of the critical factors costing Gore the election (note - one of mutlipe but still critical, the man snatched defeat from the jaws of victory).

I can tell you that you still have it backwards. It was the Dems who favored big business and the Republicans who were very very hostile to the interests of big business. Just saying that Dems favor the little guy and the Repubs favor big business is not true at all. It is the opposite that is true -- at least when it comes to business.

	16-02-2005 18:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's a good solution. In addition, make it a requirement that a working prototype is required before a patent can be considered. That is going to eliminate huge piles of applications, particularly the bunk ones such as various incarnations of perpetual motion machines. One more problem I think is the USPTO should stick with the requirement that a patent must be inobvious. For example, for the online shop application I wrote I sort the list of prior purchases for each customer by frequency. That is, the more times somebody buys something, the higher a ranking it gets. Quite obvious, you would think, but so is one-click purchase (I am waiting for Amazon to sue me now ).

UR, don't confuse what you believe is obvious from what the law requires as proof. The examiner has to find each element of the patent claim in the art and demonstrate why an ordinary artisan would choose to combine them in the way the inventor did. The problem with software patents is that the traditional means for an examiner to make this demonstration is lacking as there is no large collection of past software techniques that is easily searchable. With virtually every other technology, the converse is true, which makes weeding out "obvious" variations easier.

	17-02-2005 00:52									#46
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Awww mommy, can Urban Ranger come back out to play?

For the record, here's the full context of Bill's quote:

quote: "If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much as we can.

Funny how RMS left that part out.

RMS is a megalomaniac. He's a tool. He's praised as a genius by the Slashdot crowd, but he's completely out of touch with reality. He literally has cried when he sees computers sitting idle...

To him, OSS is his religion. As such, he's got blinders on when it comes to objectivity, and his sermons come in the form of essays, blog posts, and columns.

	17-02-2005 08:14									#47
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Ned - I never said the Dems favor the little guy? In fact, I specified that traditional Republicans of the Barry Goldwater stripe favored them. I also specified Clinton favored large busnisses. In fact that is my entire point - the constituency to push the idea in either party is lacking. In fact, to quote you -

quote: During the Clinton admin, patent law reform to reduce abuses was championed by the Democrats and resisted by the radical right. Go figure.

Ned, the Democrats are not inherently evil. Nor or the Republicans. I wanted John McCain (I believe I mentioned that before), so I'm not exactly a, to quote a neocon coworker, a hippy pinko leftist. However, I am very much opposed to the current Republican national organization, a b*stard child of the Neocons and the Religious Right.

Dick Cheney's energy task force did nothing for small upstart energy companies, and largely ignored renewable energy and biodiesal. The FCC ownership changes have essentially forced small radio outlets to sell out, because the various conglomerate will squeeze them hard it the don't - ever hear of Clear Channel?

The Bush adminstration let Haliburton become a contract subletting company, skimming the cream off the top before small businesses could bid on the Irag and Afghanistan contracts. When divisions of Haliburton actually did the work, we got fraud and incompetency - google Brown & Root, you might throw in Uzbekistan.

The Bush adminstration has continued to favor the H-1B visa, little better than an indentured worker that undermines the salaries engineers and programmers in this country. It was Clinton and both the Dems and Republicans in congress little darling, and kept getting expanded with no debate. Understand that small businesses don't get these typically, it's the purvue of large corporations, hospitals (do those quality as small businesses ) , and some municipalities.

Ned, don't destroy your own credibility. You may firmly believe that large corporations, for example, are the only way for the US to compete in the global marketplace, and that government intervention to help them, a la Airbus, is the way to go. Fine, we can agree to disagree. But this stretching the interpretation of things whenever it is critical of the administration means you get no traction, and when you have a good idea it gets ignored due to your credibility issues - look at another recent thread where virtually EVERYONE (except Gioncarlo - great company ) piled on top of you.

The thing is, when you get off your support the Bush administration high horse, like earlier here, you have great ideas. If your motivation is just to stir the pot and be irritating, that's fine. But if you are trying to persuade, even to defend, it's not working. Defense is what I did for our soldiers on that thread about the rotating out party by MP's in Iraq that got too rambunctious. Some of the EU posters started to make typical anti-American statements (not all, some EU posters are our best friends IMHO) and I defended them in context, and I didn't get piled on. Stop knee-jerking every time someone is critical of this administration, Ned, they've made some whoppers of mistakes. Don't try to sugarcoat the policies, admit to the mistakes, show where some were inevitable i.e. BAD (best available data), and show what they've done right.

	17-02-2005 13:52									#48
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shawn, good post on the whole. But you also seem to have a problem in knee jerk distrust of the Bush administration. Most of my defense of Bush often involves the somewhat crazy assertions of the left that seem to have no basis in reality. Conspiracy theorism seems to be specialty of the left. It is amazing.

What you get from me is total honesty. I will criticize Bush and Republicans when I think he and they are wrong. I will praise Democrats when I think they are right. No one has a lock on perfection, and the parties seem to change position on basic issues over time.

On the patent reform issue, the way things broke in the '90s was a real shock to me. I had assumed that the Republicans would be there for patent reform. Instead, they blocked it. I was in shock then and am still in shock. I consider the leaders of the anti-reform Republicans to be little better than scum. Their formost leader was Dana Rohrbacher. Whenever I see this guy on the tube, I get angrier than hell.

The way the Republicans behaved during the debates then made me want to disassociate myself permanently from the party.

So there. Just one example where I strongly criticize Republicans when they are wrong.

	07-03-2005 17:09									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Asher To him, OSS is his religion. As such, he's got blinders on when it comes to objectivity, and his sermons come in the form of essays, blog posts, and columns.

Actually, as far as RMS is concerned, OSS is a crutch that must be thrown away eventually. There's a big ideological difference between free software and open source software, and RMS is on the side of the former...

Anyway, to the issue I was actually coming to post about here:

FFII's take
BusinessWeek's take

quote: 7 March 2005 -- The Council Presidency today declared the software agreement of 18 May 2004 to have been adopted

If you want to know more, go ahead and read those news stories.

	07-03-2005 19:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Why post about a non-issue that hasn't occurred yet?

Was that post a non-issue now that the bill has passed?