08-02-2005 19:39									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think there is a lot of voters like you. I wish the Dems would turn anti-abortion and go more for the religious people who support more liberal economic programs, and less war. That leave room for the feminists and others for a left wing party. You forget that woman make up a majority of DP supporters. Once the DP drops reproductive rights, the DP becomes a permanent minority party.

I don't think so. I think they pick up a lot of the people that they have been trying to pick up. A lot of women are against abortion.

	08-02-2005 19:45									#92
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Most women (and men for that matter), however, are pro-choice. You don't sacrifice your main constituancy for questionable gains in another one. All that would happen is that the vast majority of the party would exit the DP, leaving it a rump, conservative, Christian party, which would just end up merging with the GOP.

Anyway, what would happen to abortion rights if the DP didn't defend them? They'd disappear. The only damn thing that party is good for is defending reproductive freedom.

	08-02-2005 19:50									#93
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If people are so pro-choice why does the GOP win? I think you are ignoring the current realities. Anyway, I would think you would like to see a third party emerge, but you have always been some what faithfull to your Dems.

	08-02-2005 19:55									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If people are so pro-choice why does the GOP win?

Because they put other priorities ahead of abortion, such as not having Arabs trying to kill them.

quote: I would think you would like to see a third party emerge, but you have always been some what faithfull to your Dems.

I'd love to see it. It's just that the GOP is so awful that I verbaly defend the DP more than I should.

	08-02-2005 20:20									#95
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I'd LOVE to see the Democratic Party turn pro-life, but its not going to happen. The best they can and should do is stop being so vocally and rabidly pro-choice. Support stuff like the partial birth abortion ban, stop wearing shirts that say "I had an abortion", maybe soften support for roe v. wade on a state's rights stance, and still firmly push for legal abortions at the state level.

	08-02-2005 22:07									#96
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Props to Che for being on the mark in this thread.

Dean is an extremist. He is a rabid, foaming at the mouth, angry individual. Republicans see this man screaming into a microphone and a mental alert is immediately broadcast over the Republican leadership consciousness with the words "Kill at all cost" in big red letters.

Let's face the facts. Barring another Great Depression, or Richard Nixon, or Bill Clinton the Dems, in their current form, will keep losing elections. The basics of political strategy were lost on them the last election as to many people were focused on killing the head of the snake rather than its body. I remember wondering what the hell was going on with the Congressional races in October, but I guess everyone was to busy watching Michael Moore prostrate himself all over TV.

They need new direction more now than ever and playing to the wants of different interest groups will not win them elections. They need to get in touch with the regular American, not Mr. Compost and Mrs. NeverNair.

	08-02-2005 22:19									#97
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Harry Tuttle

	08-02-2005 22:23									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If people are so pro-choice why does the GOP win? Because they put other priorities ahead of abortion

A lot of people do that. So why don't the Dems just go ahead and make the switch? No one really votes for pro-choice, except freminists, but there sure are a lot of people who vote pro-life. There are a lot of people who don't vote for the Dems for the simple fact that they think they are feminists.

The Dems are a liability to the left, and the left is a liability to them. There comes a time for alliances to end. As for me, I never liked those shits anyway.

	08-02-2005 22:33									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Dean is an extremist.

You're wrong... but I won't let that stop you from making inane rants. Carry on.

	08-02-2005 22:44									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You're wrong... but I won't let that stop you from making inane rants. Carry on.

Go scream into a microphone and whip up some young, naive supporters that vote on the basis of "I hate Bush" and see what people think of you then.

	08-02-2005 22:46									#101
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There's a diference between militant and extremist. Robbespierre was an extremist, but he wasn't one for screaming and shouting. Dean is a militant, i.e., an enthusiastic, vocal, and active supporter of his cause. I'm an extremist. You have the idea right, Harry, just the wrong word.

	08-02-2005 22:58									#102
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's a diference between militant and extremist. Robbespierre was an extremist, but he wasn't one for screaming and shouting. Dean is a militant, i.e., an enthusiastic, vocal, and active supporter of his cause. I'm an extremist. You have the idea right, Harry, just the wrong word.

No, in my head it sounds just about right.

	09-02-2005 00:07									#103
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Dean:

	09-02-2005 00:10									#104
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quote: I guess they are standing on principles. Good for them. They can lose all the elections they want. It is certainly their right.

Four Fantastic One-Party States:
Mexico
Japan
China
North Korea



"...We have never sought to become a [one party state]. Rather, our [views] are simply so [right] that nobody feels the need to compete."
--CEO Nwabudike Morgan...

	09-02-2005 00:16									#105
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quote: Centrism is wrong. It makes no stands, only compromises.

WOO!

Liberal's already a dirty word, I can't wait until "Centrist" and "Moderate" become just as vile insults!

	09-02-2005 01:00									#106
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Here's another reason why I think Dean is an extremist and not just a militant. During the primaries Dean was the outsider looking to break in to the so-called "Washington Insiders" that controlled the party. He screamed and he screamed bloody murder to his young followers, huffing and puffing about how they were going to storm the gates like some mongol horde.

He ran a pessimistic campaign and ran heavily against the "bureaucrats" in power. He wasn't a major proponent of anything except change. It wasn't like he was a supporter of the Dems, but rather an interloper.

	09-02-2005 01:07									#107
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Well now that I'm comparing definitions... I dunno Che. Being a militant assumes that you support something. An extremist is just extreme...

Yeah ok, I agree, but Dean sure wasn't militant about the Dems, just about himself. It's really ironic that he would be chosen to lead or for that matter want to lead something he was so against. Does this mean the traditional avenues of fundraising will dry up as he attempts to remake the party in his own image?

	09-02-2005 01:39									#108
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I think we need to give Harry Tuttle a "Nedaverse", so to speak... the Tuttleverse? It doesn't quite have the same ring to it, but nevertheless, it rings true.

	09-02-2005 01:44									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think we need to give Harry Tuttle a "Nedaverse", so to speak... the Tuttleverse? It doesn't quite have the same ring to it, but nevertheless, it rings true.

Hey you know what, at least I try to argue.

	09-02-2005 01:45									#110
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I know, you're better than me... I just troll and make poor attempts at making fun of people.

I give you props for not really biting my trolls though.

	09-02-2005 01:50									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I know, you're better than me... I just troll and make poor attempts at making fun of people.

Why thank you, that really means.... HEY!

	09-02-2005 01:50									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Centrism is wrong. It makes no stands, only compromises. WOO! Liberal's already a dirty word, I can't wait until "Centrist" and "Moderate" become just as vile insults!

I wear my "liberal" label with pride.

I do think we should use the term "progressive" more often though...it'd very hard to demonize that word.

	09-02-2005 02:16									#113
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It is about time we turn conservative into a dirty word.

The demonization of the left really started in 1968 when the right started bantering around the term "radical liberal."

	09-02-2005 02:18									#114
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Oh, and the only reason Clinton was a "moderate" was the '94 election.

	09-02-2005 02:34									#115
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quote: Here's another reason why I think Dean is an extremist and not just a militant. During the primaries Dean was the outsider looking to break in to the so-called "Washington Insiders" that controlled the party. He screamed and he screamed bloody murder to his young followers, huffing and puffing about how they were going to storm the gates like some mongol horde. He ran a pessimistic campaign and ran heavily against the "bureaucrats" in power. He wasn't a major proponent of anything except change. It wasn't like he was a supporter of the Dems, but rather an interloper.

Demanding party reform - greater grass roots input, accountability for the loser consultants, fewer corporate contributions, putting together a coherent message, and loudly standing up for your beliefs makes you an extremist? In a party as seriously ****ed up as the Democratic Party? That's nonsense.

And he did run on specific issues, largely his VT record - balanced budgets, universal childhood healthcare, etc. That his most contentious idea was party reform hardly means that his platform was amorphous. And the party reform wasn't amorphous either - it was a specific set of proposals, and it has gotten even more specific for the DNC chair campaign.

	09-02-2005 02:44									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: I guess they are standing on principles. Good for them. They can lose all the elections they want. It is certainly their right. Four Fantastic One-Party States: Mexico Japan China North Korea "...We have never sought to become a [one party state]. Rather, our [views] are simply so [right] that nobody feels the need to compete." --CEO Nwabudike Morgan...

Mexico is currently not a one-party state imho

	09-02-2005 03:05									#117
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quote: The NDP aren't part of the picture. They stand less chance than a snowball in hell of ever forming a government. The Liberals co-opted the Conservative fiscal agenda. They delivered on balanced budgets and tax cuts when the Conservatives floundered. Don't tell me that the Democrats couldn't get traction on the issue of deficits. The language they used was 'responsible government'. Revolutionary, I know, but it might be worth the risk to propose it to the American electorate.

That's not what I asked. Do they refer to tax cuts as tax relief?

quote: I can tell you what I hear. I hear rabid critics of the Liberal government. What I hear only a zombie would vote based on. I don't live in Toronto, but I doubt the Liberals get a free ride there. Still, they win.

I very much doubt that right-wing partisan radio stations are as prevalent in Canada as in the states. But, let's assume they are. There's still the matter of massive Republican investment in right-wing think tanks, particularly focusing on language, which doubt is anywhere near as extensive in Canada. Republican Congressmen take classes on language framing. There's just no comparison between the two.

quote: I doubt it comes down to that. I doubt that any from the Liberals or Democrats would ever admit that abortions in the third trimester depended on the mother's health. No, the issue is no restrictions, or Pro Choice 'no matter what', no matter what everyone else thinks about it. Religion be damned. I am not religious, but the thought of a child who is hours from life outside of the womb being dismembered and destroyed on a whim is disgusting and it cries out for restriction.

Then you clearly don't understand Democratic politics. In my experience, the vast majority of Democrats support restrictions on abortion in the third trimester, excepting situations endangering the mother's health. In fact, that's the current law in Roe.

quote: I would say that election results do not back you up.

How so? Kerry lost principally because he wasn't able to articulate a message. He didn't define his core values, rather had a laundry list of issues which he didn't bother to defend, or connect to a moral basis. That's why the flip-flopper charge stuck so well to him - he was seen as vacuous.

	09-02-2005 03:09									#118
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To me it seems that US politics isn't even about important issues anymore, it is about wedge issues like gay marrige, and looking good for the news clips.

	09-02-2005 03:12									#119
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quote: Very simple. Clinton got elected and moved left away from the center. He started pushing for National Health Care and ending the ban on gays in the military among other things. These are nice ideas but it was more then enough to convince the center that Clinton, and by reflection the Democratic Party, was leftist instead of centrist. Bam, we lose election.

As Rufus stated, Clinton campaigned well to the left of how he governed.

The real lesson of 1994 is that Clinton failed to define his Presidency or the Democratic Party, so the Republicans did it for him. He didn't bother to defend his relatively moderate health care reform, so the Republicans turned it into a NHS-like system. He caved and triangulated, and so did the rest of the Democratic Party. And they were slaughtered in Congress.

	09-02-2005 03:13									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Odin To me it seems that US politics isn't even about important issues anymore, it is about wedge issues like gay marrige, and looking good for the news clips.

It's how the right has managed to gain power like it has... wedge issues like gay marriage and abortion split the nation. While we are all arguing about this other bullshit, they laugh all the way to the bank with their tax cuts while social programs get gutted.