22-02-2005 04:32									#31
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quote: blacks on death row

How is that undemocratic using any of the interpretations of democracy?

	22-02-2005 04:34									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos How is that undemocratic using any of the interpretations of democracy?

It can be argued (and I've read it several times) that blacks are disproportinally put on death row in comparison to whites. For some, there is still a strong discrimination in that regard. That's why I put it in my disclaimer.

	22-02-2005 06:10									#33
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you need proportional representation/ direct democracy for democracy to exist.

	22-02-2005 06:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia you need proportional representation/ direct democracy for democracy to exist.

Not if you consider the vote as a rather unimportant thing, whose main purpose is to make sure the rulers don't step out of line.

But indeed, it's a conception of democracy that emphasizes much more the "freedom from the State" aspect than the "power to the people" aspect. It's somewhat odd that a Libertarian like you support a political system that is likely to get more things done, and more radically (direct democracy) than liberal democracy

	22-02-2005 06:20									#35
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quote: you need proportional representation/ direct democracy for democracy to exist.

No, this is you modifying the term to suit your personal agenda. Democracy is exactly what it was in Greece thousands of years ago. Government by vote. Some here are at least adding adjectives to the word to quantify their mods, but Democracy is Democracy. I am personally not a big fan of pre-patch democracy either.

	22-02-2005 06:27									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos No, this is you modifying the term to suit your personal agenda. Democracy is exactly what it was in Greece thousands of years ago. Government by vote. Some here are at least adding adjectives to the word to quantify their mods, but Democracy is Democracy.

Fact is, there is no unique definition of democracy. But an argument over definitions is often moot. You can claim that the only government that can be called "Democracy" is what happened in ancient Greece. Just like you can say that the only colour that can be called "blue" is what can be seen in the sky - all other hues needing other names.

To argue on whether the word is rightly or wrongly used is pretty useless, because nobody can change his mind.

	22-02-2005 06:41									#37
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1776. The USA has always had representative forms of government, in 1776 they shed the royal governments and king.

	22-02-2005 06:44									#38
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quote: Fact is, there is no unique definition of democracy. But an argument over definitions is often moot. You can claim that the only government that can be called "Democracy" is what happened in ancient Greece. Just like you can say that the only colour that can be called "blue" is what can be seen in the sky - all other hues needing other names.

That is why I consider them all democracies. The different shades of blue most definetly have different names. They are all blue.

	22-02-2005 06:47									#39
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quote: Not if you consider the vote as a rather unimportant thing, whose main purpose is to make sure the rulers don't step out of line.

well thats exactly what i want. 1. keep the rulers in line, and 2. give the power to the people.

quote: It's somewhat odd that a Libertarian like you support a political system that is likely to get more things done, and more radically (direct democracy) than liberal democracy

well, i dont know about that. i think it all depends on the voters. if people are naturally conservative, there will be less forward movement. if people are naturally apathetic to voting, then less will get done.

quote: But indeed, it's a conception of democracy that emphasizes much more the "freedom from the State" aspect than the "power to the people" aspect.

yeah. je m'en fouts du gouvernement.

quote: No, this is you modifying the term to suit your personal agenda

right, as if you dont do that. as if the greeks didnt do that.

quote: Democracy is exactly what it was in Greece thousands of years ago.

oh yeah, democracy ONLY means vote by the rich male property owners. i see.

	22-02-2005 07:01									#40
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The Articles of Confed were the first time citizens we allowed to vote in their head of state. Thats a good start.

Although I agree with Oerdin that its worth mentioning that most colonial assemblies were highly democratic, suffrage aside.

I know in 17th century Mass. almost every position was up to a vote, things like judges, sherrifs, clerks, etc...

	22-02-2005 07:07									#41
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"Czechago" - 1968 and the resulting McGovern-Fraser reforms.

	22-02-2005 07:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia well thats exactly what i want. 1. keep the rulers in line, and 2. give the power to the people.

I'm much closer to #2 myself (remember: what I described was not what I support. I think the "power to the people" part is much more important than the "freedom from the State" part, which has to do with the fact that my political culture is not Anglo-liberalism)

quote: well, i dont know about that. i think it all depends on the voters. if people are naturally conservative, there will be less forward movement. if people are naturally apathetic to voting, then less will get done.

There's a natural tendency for conservatism in the truest sense of the word, i.e. the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. For people to mobilize in order to change a political problem, something serious has to be going on, unless they're politics junkies. At least in France (and I suspect pretty much everywhere else except in Netherlands), there are quite a few progressive policies that would have never passed if the rulers hadn't challenged the majority opinion: abolition of death penalty, abortion, gay marriage...

Don't get me wrong, I'd have preferred the people to be in charge of deciding about it, despite an outcome that I'd loathe. But the people are far more likely than politicians (at least in liberal democracies) to support the encroachment of other people's rights*. I understand that Libbies are no more identical between each others than Commies are, but I thought the "leave me the heck alone" was one of the most important points of libertarianism.

quote: yeah. je m'en fouts du gouvernement.

Yep, I think it's quite bad to give as little importance to the people's sovereignty. This is why I stroongly support a more direct democracy (and incidentally, that's why I sympathize with Pekka's anger so much at him not being polled for the EU Constitution)

However, a purely direct democracy is unpractical to the point that it cannot happen. There are so many decisions to be taken that even a full-time job lawmaker can't prsonally grasp them all. Since most people don't have the dedication of a professional lawmaker, and since they have work to do, you can't expect the whole population to take the bulk of decisions. The people should be directly consulted about important issues, and such consultations should indeed happen more often than in most countres but Switzerland.

Since a pure direct democracy is unpractical to the point of being unrealistic, I strongly support "mandatory democracy" (don't know the word for it in English) where the elected parties are forced by law to deliver the policies they promised. This way, elections will be more based on platform than today, and the püeople will have more of a say on their collective fate.



*For a study about such attitudes in Germany, you may want to check the English-speaking book: Rohrschneider, Rohrschneider, Robert 1999: Learning Democracy: Democratic and Economic Values in unified Germany. New York: Oxford University Press. Esp Chapters 6 and 7.

	22-02-2005 07:13									#43
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I just can't call the US a democracy with any kind of definition of the word. It's just too ****ed up.

	22-02-2005 07:16									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It can be argued (and I've read it several times) that blacks are disproportinally put on death row in comparison to whites. For some, there is still a strong discrimination in that regard. That's why I put it in my disclaimer.

I think you are ignoring the facts that blacks committ more crimes than whites in proportion to their population.

Yeah people will say that is racist, but the numbers don't lie.

I don't blame them. The system has been ****ing them over since birth. I'd committ crimes too. The fact is, there is still alot of discrimination in this country.

	22-02-2005 07:22									#45
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Diss,

There is more to it than they just commit more crimes. They are given the death penalty more often, because they are black. They are also convicted more often although innocent.

	22-02-2005 07:27									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Diss, There is more to it than they just commit more crimes. They are given the death penalty more often, because they are black. They are also convicted more often although innocent.

this may be true in other states, but it doesn't seem true in my state.

	22-02-2005 07:30									#47
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Well this thread has gone south.

	22-02-2005 08:22									#48
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To say that I expected the threadjack to be about gay marriage


(Don't blame me, someone would have mentioned them if I hadn't written the disclaimer anyway )

	22-02-2005 08:50									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident this may be true in other states, but it doesn't seem true in my state.

Didn't know you had black people in Nevada.

	22-02-2005 09:56									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Naw. Otherwise I could have a government where only members of a particular religion that constitutes 3% of the population can vote and claim that it is a 'democracy'.

Yes, so?

	22-02-2005 09:57									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff To me, that's necessary to call a Liberal government a representative Democracy. Any Liberal government without universal suffrage cannot be considered a "Democracy"

Most of what MOST people call, and called, democracies did not have universal suffrage. The word democracy was invented by the Greeks, not us, to describe some of their governments, none of which had universal suffrage. You can't just say that they were misusing the term!

	22-02-2005 13:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes, so?

Accepting such definitions would make promoting 'democracy' a worthless cause. That would be a genuine shame.

	22-02-2005 15:13									#53
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We're a democratic republic, not a democracy.