22-02-2005 10:33									#31
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you guys are crazy!

Bush just can't repeal all the drug laws. He'd probably be impeached. You are overstating the power of the president. The president just can't do what he wants.

	22-02-2005 10:35									#32
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Drake

quote: The fact that you consider Bush personally culpable for the imprisonment of people based on drug laws that predate Bush's presidency and will exist after his term is over is a bit laughable, isn't it?

He enforces those laws and he knew he would be in that position if elected. The fact others passed the laws doesn't absolve him of anything, otherwise, the "I was just following orders/precedent" argument would be viable. I mean, did Lincoln's complicitly in the genocide of Indians absolve later presidents of their complicity in genocide? We cannot argue our sins are to be ignored because our predecessors sinned as well...

	22-02-2005 10:37									#33
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quote: you guys are crazy!

No ****...

	22-02-2005 10:39									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Drake He enforces those laws and he knew he would be in that position if elected. The fact others passed the laws doesn't absolve him of anything, otherwise, the "I was just following orders/precedent" argument would be viable. I mean, did Lincoln's complicitly in the genocide of Indians absolve later presidents of their complicity in genocide? We cannot argue our sins are to be ignored because our predecessors sinned as well...

you're comparing a night in jail with the genocide of Indians. Yes, as long as you aren't dealing you won't spend more than a night in jail. If even that.

	22-02-2005 10:41									#35
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Diss

quote: you guys are crazy! Bush just can't repeal all the drug laws.

He can pardon people. He can declare the drug laws unconstitutional, which they are. Or, he could not apply for the job of Caesar...

quote: He'd probably be impeached. You are overstating the power of the president. The president just can't do what he wants.

Then he shouldn't have run for office if he could not fulfill the job's requirements out of respect for Jesus and the religion he professes. I just don't know how a person can jail people for doing what he has done, unless he turns himself in for the same punishment he administers to others.

	22-02-2005 10:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Diss He can pardon people. He can declare the drug laws unconstitutional, which they are. Or, he could not apply for the job of Caesar... Then he shouldn't have run for office if he could not fulfill the job's requirements out of respect for Jesus and the religion he professes. I just don't know how a person can jail people for doing what he has done, unless he turns himself in for the same punishment he administers to others.

unconstitutional? He's not in the supreme court. He can't do **** about the laws.

yeah sure he can pardon people. It's difficult to pardon millions of people.

You guys don't understand how things are done in Washington. You don't **** over your own party (the republican party) and expect to get the things you want done, done.

And Bill Clinton did the same thing!

	22-02-2005 10:51									#37
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quote: you're comparing a night in jail with the genocide of Indians. Yes, as long as you aren't dealing you won't spend more than a night in jail. If even that.

People have spent years in jail for possession albeit the Draconian punishments were in the past. But I'm comparing the principle involved, not the results. Drake said Bush wasn't responsible for enforcing laws he didn't pass (when has he ever opposed those laws?).
That argument is applicable to any law and any president, not just Bush and drug laws - a principle is involved.

If slavery was still legal and the punishment for helping a runaway slave was a night in jail, would that mean the president who enforced that law was not culpable for jailing offenders because someone else made the law? No...

	22-02-2005 11:01									#38
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quote: unconstitutional? He's not in the supreme court. He can't do **** about the laws.

He took an oath to uphold the Constitution, not the opinions of the SCOTUS. When Thomas Jefferson entered office he refused to enforce the Alien and Sedition Act after declaring it unconstitutional.

quote: yeah sure he can pardon people. It's difficult to pardon millions of people.

I could do it my first day in office with a simple edict - everyone in federal prison for drug possession is hereby pardoned.

quote: You guys don't understand how things are done in Washington. You don't **** over your own party (the republican party) and expect to get the things you want done, done.

We know Diss, but Bush's political alliances of convenience do not create the moral authority to punish people for doing what he has done.

quote: And Bill Clinton did the same thing!

That looks like Drake's argument, "he did it before me".

	22-02-2005 11:13									#39
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quote: When Thomas Jefferson entered office he refused to enforce the Alien and Sedition Act after declaring it unconstitutional.

Um... not quite. The Alien and Sedition Act expired in March 3, 1801, the day before Jefferson took over. So he simply did not extend it. There was no declaring anything unconstitutional.

	22-02-2005 11:22									#40
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And Marbury v. Madison hadn't even happened yet...

	22-02-2005 11:59									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker But doesn't one lose the moral authority? The adulteress did something wrong according to Jesus, yet he "defended" her by pointing to the wrongs of her would be punishers. Its not about recognising a wrong you've committed, thats where repentance and hopefully forgiveness enters the picture, but how can one retain the moral authority to punish others for doing what you have done? Should they not have the same opportunity to repent and receive forgiveness in due time?

They wanted to put Jesus in a situation where he could be accused of not upholding the Law. The adulteress "caught in the act" was brought to Jesus. So where was the man? They had set her up and let the stool pidgeon go, and thus were guilty themselves.

The leaders who wanted to trap Jesus weren't convicted, but they also weren't willing to throw the first stone. They preferred to work by stirring up the crowds so that they had deniability. So when the crowds wouldn't join their hypocrisy they backed off.

quote: I just don't know how a person can jail people for doing what he has done, unless he turns himself in for the same punishment he administers to others.

So have you turned yourself in for every time you've broken the speed limit or let a parking meter expire? In this country we have a right to freedom from self-incrimination. We have absolutely no obligation to turn ourselves in for minor offenses.

Do you want to claim every personal use drug conviction is their very first use? They all have the opportunity to change their ways before they get caught.

	22-02-2005 12:35									#42
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quote: Um... not quite. The Alien and Sedition Act expired in March 3, 1801, the day before Jefferson took over. So he simply did not extend it. There was no declaring anything unconstitutional.

Jefferson believed there was a horizontal set of checks and balances, with the three branches checking each other, though only "in their own sphere of action." The Judiciary could overrule a lower court on a case. It could not, in his opinion, rule on acts of the Legislature or Executive. The Executive could refuse to implement a law it believed to be unconstitutional. Jefferson also believed there was a vertical set of checks and balances. States are bound by the Constitution as well, but a state could refuse to comply with a Federal law it considered unconstitutional. All powers not expressly granted to the Federal government were reserved for the states; states could enact their own laws about matters over which the Federal government has no jurisdiction. Jefferson did not necessarily object to regulation of speech in principle.

edsitement.neh.gov/view_lesson_plan.asp?id=536

The A&S was a big issue in the election Jefferson won several months before being sworn in and he said he would not enforce it and the above was his rationale.


And whats up with fantasy baseball? We better get this thing going asap.

	22-02-2005 12:40									#43
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quote: They wanted to put Jesus in a situation where he could be accused of not upholding the Law. The adulteress "caught in the act" was brought to Jesus. So where was the man? They had set her up and let the stool pidgeon go, and thus were guilty themselves.

Jesus turned to her once they were gone and told her to sin no more. She was guilty... And Jesus did not tell them to go find the man and punish them both...

	22-02-2005 14:04									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Actually, I just value a person who manages to turn away from drugs and succeed more than I do a person who pisses away all his talent in a stew of substances before finally blowing his own brains out.

This so called "success" is such a joke. Just look at Mr Bush's ventures with oil companies - one failed company after another. Such a success.

	22-02-2005 14:26									#45
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quote: This so called "success" is such a joke. Just look at Mr Bush's ventures with oil companies - one failed company after another. Such a success.

I'd consider becoming president of the U.S. to be a success. Not as awesome a job as being emperor of Japan, but pretty damn close.

	22-02-2005 18:17									#46
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I'd rather be Hunter S Thompson than President

(except for the dead part)

	22-02-2005 18:30									#47
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Zombie Hunter S. Thompson

	22-02-2005 18:31									#48
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Douglas Wead is is schmuck just like Linda Tripp. Both need to burn on what ever level of hell is reserved for betrayers and rumor mongerers.

	22-02-2005 18:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Douglas Wead is is schmuck just like Linda Tripp. Both need to burn on what ever level of hell is reserved for betrayers and rumor mongerers.

The Joe McCarthy/Roy Cohn level.

	22-02-2005 18:48									#50
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I think he has every right to uphold the current laws and speak against drugs and not be hypocrite. People make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes and so has Dubya. It doesn't mean he doesn't believe drugs are bad for you.

I have smoke pot. And I didn't like it. I got caught smoking pot. I got fined for doing it. Does it mean I'm a drug addict? No. Does it mean I will do it again? No. Most definitely not, because it's not even beneficiary for me. Does it mean I can't be trusted? No. On the other hand, I know what pot is, I have smoked it and that's it. If I speak against pot now, would it make me hypocrite? No. If I sentence someone for smoking pot, hypocrite? No. I was sentenced to fines too. Then again I wouldn't sentence someone for just smoking pot, if you ask me, go ahead and have fun.

Then there are people who say you shouldn't condemn drugs unless you have tried it yourself, so you know what it's about. Mixed messages, again, I don't think the two are connected as many claim it is.

	22-02-2005 19:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you guys are crazy! Bush just can't repeal all the drug laws. He'd probably be impeached. You are overstating the power of the president. The president just can't do what he wants.

The president can just about do everything he wants within reasonable limits. Maybe he can't pardon millions instantly, but he has the power to change the policiy of the government about this. He has the power to actually change things. If he doesn't have that power, then who does?

Besides via manipulation and playing with the media in the right way it's possible to do anything, such as ... say starting a war...

	22-02-2005 21:11									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten ... a person who pisses away all his talent in a stew of substances before finally blowing his own brains out.

The man you refer to was probably 1000X more successful than you will ever dream of being. Way to piss it away HST.

	23-02-2005 05:28									#53
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I guess we'll see, won't we?

	23-02-2005 06:24									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This so called "success" is such a joke. Just look at Mr Bush's ventures with oil companies - one failed company after another. Such a success.

It was a success for him. He made boatloads of cash and it was only the investors who lost everything.

	23-02-2005 06:49									#55
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The way George Bush and his cronies trashed John McCain speaks volumes about his version of "Christianity" so nothing he does surprises me, including punishing millions for doing what he did.

	23-02-2005 09:07									#56
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Everyone in politics in the United States is a 'Christian'. The word means nothing. I saw John Ashcroft compromising his so-called beliefs during his confirmation hearings and I thought, what a hypocrite. Jesus said to turn the other cheek also. Why doesn't Bush forgive all the terrorists who blew up the trade center?

Answer:

The whole idea of Christian America is a big joke. All the real Christians here were killed off by the Indians years ago.

	23-02-2005 09:34									#57
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quote: Jefferson believed there was a horizontal set of checks and balances, with the three branches checking each other, though only "in their own sphere of action." The Judiciary could overrule a lower court on a case. It could not, in his opinion, rule on acts of the Legislature or Executive. The Executive could refuse to implement a law it believed to be unconstitutional.

But he didn't do a damned thing to put his ideas in place. When Chief Justice Marshall declared there was such a thing as 'judicial review', Jefferson didn't decry it to the rafters. Instead he was happy that he didn't have to give the judgeship to the midnight appointee and went on his way. His lack of opposition to Marshall's decision, overturning portions of the Judiciary Act of 1789 lay the groundwork for the Supreme Court's immense power today.

quote: The A&S was a big issue in the election Jefferson won several months before being sworn in and he said he would not enforce it and the above was his rationale.

He wouldn't have to refuse to enforce it (which was a power the executive reserved even after judicial review was in full swing, btw... it didn't involve declaring anything unconstitutional, however), he could just let it die without renewing it.

	23-02-2005 09:36									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus The president can just about do everything he wants within reasonable limits. Maybe he can't pardon millions instantly, but he has the power to change the policiy of the government about this. He has the power to actually change things. If he doesn't have that power, then who does?

It's called Congress. President doesn't have the power to change jack domestically if Congress isn't on board.

	23-02-2005 09:46									#59
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quote: But he didn't do a damned thing to put his ideas in place. When Chief Justice Marshall declared there was such a thing as 'judicial review', Jefferson didn't decry it to the rafters. Instead he was happy that he didn't have to give the judgeship to the midnight appointee and went on his way. His lack of opposition to Marshall's decision, overturning portions of the Judiciary Act of 1789 lay the groundwork for the Supreme Court's immense power today.

Thats nice

quote: He wouldn't have to refuse to enforce it (which was a power the executive reserved even after judicial review was in full swing, btw... it didn't involve declaring anything unconstitutional, however), he could just let it die without renewing it.

When he gave his rationale for ignoring the A&S it was still in effect, he was merely explaining why he would ignore it once in office. Look again at what he said if you think he wasn't declaring it unconstitutional...

"The Executive could refuse to implement a law it believed to be unconstitutional."

He was talking specifically about the sedition act.