25-02-2005 15:07									#61
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Israel founded on the basis of anti-Arab and anti-British terrorism?

	25-02-2005 15:19									#62
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quote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Israel founded on the basis of anti-Arab and anti-British terrorism?

A) not really.
B) What does this have to do with our discussion?

	25-02-2005 15:23									#63
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two questions (without intentions, just out of curiosity)

1) how many israeli's are living in israel ?
2) how many colonists are there living in gaza and the west bank ?

	25-02-2005 15:31									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Israel founded on the basis of anti-Arab and anti-British terrorism?

No, they happened to be incidental.

Not all Zionists were terrorists, just as not all Jews in the mandate were terrorists or Zionists.

You shouldn't gloss over or underestimate what the Jewish inhabitants and recent immigrants were facing from Arab opponents of both a Jewish state and the Allies- Sadat and Nasser had confused being Arab nationalists with a pro-Axis stance, and the Mufti of Jerusalem had been a welcome guest in Nazi Germany during WWII . Daily Arab attacks on non-combatant Jews were taking place, and as we've seen in Northern Ireland and the Balkans, add religion to nationalism and conflict takes on a whole new ghastly dimension.

Despite that, there were also British troops and British police who were either anti-semitic (as regards the Jews) or pro-Arab, and helped to arm Arab terrorists. People like Glubb Pasha were busy training the Jordanian army.

It helps to put occurrences such as the King David Hotel bombing into some kind of context, but doesn't excuse it.

	25-02-2005 15:33									#65
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quote: 1) how many israeli's are living in israel ?

the population of Israel is 6.7 million, ~1 million of them muslim. this includes the settlers, as well.

quote: 2) how many colonists are there living in gaza and the west bank ?

some 300,000 people, if you count people living in Jerusalem's quarters over the west-bank, and some other cases of urban sprawl getting into the territories. without them, I'd assum somewhere around 100,000+ people.

	25-02-2005 15:49									#66
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Molly:

quote: It helps to put occurrences such as the King David Hotel bombing into some kind of context, but doesn't excuse it.

Actually, I hardly feel that the KD bombing is really big on the list of crimes. There are others, retaliations (?) against arab civilians, for example. KD Hotel was the Brit HQ, after all. I guess it depends on the view of the legitimacy of fighting the British forces.

	25-02-2005 15:53									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Molly: quote: It helps to put occurrences such as the King David Hotel bombing into some kind of context, but doesn't excuse it. Actually, I hardly feel that the KD bombing is really big on the list of crimes. There are others, retaliations (?) against arab civilians, for example. KD Hotel was the Brit HQ, after all. I guess it depends on the view of the legitimacy of fighting the British forces.

Oh I know Deir Yassin is bigger in (atrocity) scale than the King David, but it was an indiscriminate bombing which killed British troops and Arab and Jewish civilians, and prompted some unpleasant reprisals by British troops and police against non-combatant Jews.

It is of course much better known in the U.K. than Deir Yassin because British people were killed, and worse- British troops were killed.

	25-02-2005 17:18									#68
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quote: Oh I know Deir Yassin is bigger in (atrocity) scale than the King David, but it was an indiscriminate bombing which killed British troops and Arab and Jewish civilians, and prompted some unpleasant reprisals by British troops and police against non-combatant Jews.

Actually, I wasn't referring Dir Yassin, since that came somewhat later, during the war, and is not relevant to the discussion. I meant several attacks on civilians by the Etsel ( Irgun). As to the reprisals by the british, any crime there is a crime that the british at fault. The attack itself was actually quite humanitarian. I mean, warning about the fact that a bomb is located? The fact that it was indiscriminate was due to the nature of the building.

quote: It is of course much better known in the U.K. than Deir Yassin because British people were killed, and worse- British troops were killed.

Are the british more sensitive to military casualties than civilian ones?


Anyway this is a threadjack. Back on topic.

	25-02-2005 19:09									#69
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Ok, so youre a settler leader with resources and you live in a major west bank settlement - not one of scheduled for disengagement now, but not a likely "keeper" either. Say in or near Hebron, for ex. You can throw your resources into the fight now, pulling out all the stops - fighting for a group of settlements most Israelis, even some who are sympathetic to YOUR settlement, want to give up. Having once done that, IF you lose, youre now an adversary of the State, and will be crushed and will no longer be in a position to exert that opposition WHEN its the turn for your settlement. OTOH, if you DONT join in on opposing disengagament now, by the time they get around to your settlement, the Gazan settlers arent there to support you, and the precedent is established.

All I can say is, if i were a settler leader trying to stop disengagement, Ariel Sharon is NOT the man I would have chosen as my adversary. Sharons strategic sense and his sheer stubborness are going to be key factors in any showdown.

	26-02-2005 01:08									#70
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see, but I wonder where would such a settler leader put the line.

	26-02-2005 02:44									#71
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And it looks like the debate might become purely academical in light of the large explosion in Tel Aviv 10 minutes ago.

	26-02-2005 02:45									#72
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eep

EDIT: I don't see anything on Reuters about it. Where's the story?

	26-02-2005 02:47									#73
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happy days.

	26-02-2005 02:50									#74
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My newspaper's website seem to hint it might not have been an attack. Do you Israeli people know anything more?

	26-02-2005 02:52									#75
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Can someone provide a link? CNN doesn't seem to have it either

	26-02-2005 02:54									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist My newspaper's website seem to hint it might not have been an attack. Do you Israeli people know anything more?

It's probably an attack, at least according to the police.

So far there are ~30 injuries and an unknown number of fatalities.

	26-02-2005 02:58									#77
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http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/545139.html

	27-02-2005 19:24									#78
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*******s!

I've never seen a group so prone of killing all hope

	27-02-2005 19:37									#79
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quote: You shouldn't gloss over or underestimate what the Jewish inhabitants and recent immigrants were facing from Arab opponents of both a Jewish state and the Allies- Sadat and Nasser had confused being Arab nationalists with a pro-Axis stance, and the Mufti of Jerusalem had been a welcome guest in Nazi Germany during WWII . Daily Arab attacks on non-combatant Jews were taking place, and as we've seen in Northern Ireland and the Balkans, add religion to nationalism and conflict takes on a whole new ghastly dimension.

So it was still reactionary to WWII?

	27-02-2005 19:56									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy So it was still reactionary to WWII?

In the same way that WWII was reaction to WWI which was a reaction to Bismarck's triumph over Austria-Hungary which was a reaction to Napoleon's triumph over the Germanic peoples which was...

...and all the way back to Arminius, the Teutoberger Wald, the Diaspora and the Hellenization of Judaism.

Everything starts somewhere. Except for life, the universe and everything, which is simply 42.

	27-02-2005 20:18									#81
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True, and I can't use it to propose that Israel be dismantled now, 57 years later, though through the retrospectoscope I can see myself in 1948 saying that it was a mistake, just as I did in 2003 re. Iraq, even though deterministically it was bound to happen regardless. That's the benefit of retrospect, it's the only means by which we can see something in history as being a mistake, rather than a necessity... it's a pleasant luxury to use on a Sunday