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Verto
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
this is the opposite of discrimination.
I don't think you can discriminate against the dominate race |
quote:
and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong on this. |
Good, because you are.
Last edited by Verto on 24-02-2005 at 04:26
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Lul Thyme
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Quebec, Canada
Aug 2000
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
It's just not politically correct for white people to remove affirmitive action.
There I said it. Are you all happy now?
The minorities should be the one to say they don't need it.
How are we, as white people able to determine accurately if they are being held back because of their race? |
What if they decide they dont mind being pulled AHEAD by affirmative action...
Im not saying thats the case, jsut saying your argument isnt very good I find.
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Pyrodrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
The minorities should be the one to say they don't need it.
How are we, as white people able to determine accurately if they are being held back because of their race? |
Or their gender? Or their religion? Or their age? ...etc....
Time for some more white basketball players, more black hockey players, more male nurses, and more female firefighters. We don't need the best firefighters to save your puppy or a family in a fire, only a PC-looking team.
Besides the above problem, this discrimination assumes a guilty until proven innocent standard against individuals for something others did/do. If Pekka moves to the US & is white, he shouldn't be penalized because some bigot rejected a minority somewhere else in the country/world/past. Fighting a wrong from some people with the same wrong now applied against other people doesn't make a right. And it certainly doesn't lead to a more color-blind society. As mentioned earlier, there are better ways, even if you support AA, than to completely ignore the qualifications of an individual and put race first.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
So the fact that black men tend to eat more of the wrong foods and excersize less then white men is my fault how? |
I think higher crime and poverty rates account for a greater portion of the difference in life expectancy.
quote:
You love to trot out that "blacks are more likely to be in jail" line all the time but lets compare apples to apples. What is the incarceration rate for poor urban people in general? What percentage of poor urban white males or poor urban hispanic males or poor urban Asian males vs poor urban black males.
The dividing issue should be if someone is poor not what their race is. |
From an old paper, but things have not changed:
quote:
TABLE 3
NATIONAL RATES OF INCARCERATION
(Crude and Race Specific)
Population % of Pop # of Inmates % Inmate Population Rate/100,000 U.S. Residents Rate /100,000 of @ Race
Whites 208,704,000 83.9 34,3550 48.21 138.13 164.611
Blacks 30,483,000 12.25 33,4952 47.01 134.67 1,098.816
American Indians 2,065,000 0.83 5,994 0.84 2.41 290.266
Asians 7,458,000 3.0 2,480 0.35 .99 33.25
Total 248,709,873 99.98 68,6976 96.41 276.22 N/A
Source: The Corrections Yearbook 1992 |
Difficult to read, but the best way to put it: for every 100,000 white Americans 164.6 were in prison.
For every 100,000 Black Americans, 1,098.8 were in prison.
Unless poverty rates amongst whites are 1/10 of those amongst blacks AND almost all white in prison are poor, there is no way the incarceratino rate amongs poor white men is similar to those of poor black men, even thought the incarceration of poor whites is probably certainly greater than those of rich whites.
Last edited by GePap on 25-02-2005 at 00:24
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No, they decide they will not accept any white candidates at all. It's not just an "advantage" - it's total exclusion. It's as if Harvard decided it would only accept blacks and hispanics. |
No, read the story. CSC specifically stated that it is hiring white people.
"CSC spokesman Michele Pilon-Santilli said the pool was narrowed because a high number of applicants were competing for limited openings."
White people are being hired, but there are so many applicants on file that CSC has decided not to take any more applications. There is nothing unusual or unfair abotu this. Companies routinely stop accepting applications when there is already a waiting list.
CSC wants to hire more minorities and it doesn't have a waiting list for qualified minorities, therefore it is still accepting applications from them.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:22
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Which is all very fine if you believe in the fairytale that all people are exactly the same, but the reality is that our perspectives are shaped by our culture. The best work places are those that are diverse, where people can provide different perspectives on the world, perspectives that are not more right or wrong, but simply different and reflecting different realities.
In this case, a Native jail guard would likely be able to connect at a deeper level with a Native prisoner than a white guard. The Native guard would be able to say, I've been there, but you don't have to choose the path you're on. The Native guard would be able to say "don't give me no **** about the white man keeping you down." And the Native guard would be more likely to treat Native prisoners as a person rather than the too-often Canadian attitude that Natives are just drunks.
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Pyrodrew
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Which is all very fine if you believe in the fairytale that all people are exactly the same, but the reality is that our perspectives are shaped by our culture. The best work places are those that are diverse, where people can provide different perspectives on the world, perspectives that are not more right or wrong, but simply different and reflecting different realities. |
No, the idea that quotas always = better work place is the fairytale. A PC-looking firefighter team is not as good as a better performing firefighter team. If you're filling quotas just to fill quotas you don't help anyone and in some positions put lives at risk.
quote:
In this case, a Native jail guard would likely be able to connect at a deeper level with a Native prisoner than a white guard. The Native guard would be able to say, I've been there, but you don't have to choose the path you're on. The Native guard would be able to say "don't give me no **** about the white man keeping you down." And the Native guard would be more likely to treat Native prisoners as a person rather than the too-often Canadian attitude that Natives are just drunks. |
First, with that logic they should also create a position exclusive for those with a criminal history so prisoners have someone who can "connect at a deeper level" and say "I've been there." You do not even know if the positions they look to fill need "someone who is able to connect at a deep level with a Native prisoner".
You simply invented a fairytale scenario including a hero to "save the day" from the negative Native stereotype you're spreading of "white man keeping me down" (which also spreads the negative white stereotype) to try to justify your discrimination. Oh, the irony. And who are you to say a white man raised in a Native neighborhood/culture/parents with degrees in psychology would not connect as well as a black man with poor social skills who was homeschooled by very conservative rich white parents?
Furthermore, you missed my point about "Have you ever seen a 1/16th Native American?" Who decides when someone is no longer a minority? And there people with caucasian phenotypes but minority ancestry and vice-versa as well. People don't fit into the neat boxes you designed in your mind to discriminate against so easily.
Finally, there is a big difference between actively seeking minorities, such as recruiting/posting the job in minority neighborhoods/websites/newspapers and flat out rejecting someone and everything they have to offer simply because they don't have the right skin color.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:22
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You just don't get it, eh.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrodrew
No, the idea that quotas always = better work place is the fairytale. A PC-looking firefighter team is not as good as a better performing firefighter team. If you're filling quotas just to fill quotas you don't help anyone and in some positions put lives at risk.
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Nice bald assertion. Let's try the reverse, a diverse workforce always creates better results, particularly in occupations that involve dealing with a multicultural population.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrodrew
First, with that logic they should also create a position exclusive for those with a criminal history so prisoners have someone who can "connect at a deeper level" and say "I've been there."
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Your attempt to use an extreme example to argue against a logical position has utterly failed. The fact is that people with a criminal record are sometimes employed to counsel criminals precisely because they can say "I've been there, and I was able to change my life." Do you have some objection about employing people who have committed crimes, done their time and who are now trying to rebuild their lives?
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrodrew
You do not even know if the positions they look to fill need "someone who is able to connect at a deep level with a Native prisoner".
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Prove to me that I am wrong. There are Natives who are in jail, the jail system is designed to rehabilitate (along with punish) criminals. Therefore, it stands to reason that CSC wants to help Native prisoners and one way to do that is by having a multicultural CSC staff. For specific examples, look at how the Canadian government has implemented programs that use Native culture to help criminals who are Native.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrodrew
You simply invented a fairytale scenario including a hero to "save the day" from the negative Native stereotype you're spreading of "white man keeping me down" (which also spreads the negative white stereotype) to try to justify your discrimination.
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In every social group there is someone who blames their problems on other people. Denying reality is going to help people.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrodrew
And who are you to say a white man raised in a Native neighborhood/culture/parents with degrees in psychology would not connect as well as a black man with poor social skills who was homeschooled by very conservative rich white parents?
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Aye-yeah. Do I really have to explain this?
Companies routinely screen potential job applicants by setting specific requirements for a job, for example, 10 year's work experience. Yes, there might be someone with only five years of work experience who can do the job just as well, but so what. And yes, the specific requirements discriminate against those who do not meet the requirements, but so what.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrodrew v
Furthermore, you missed my point about "Have you ever seen a 1/16th Native American?"
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No, I ignore your pointless comment. In Canada, a Native person in this context means a Status Indian. Someone who is 1/16th Native is either a Metis or not, but not a Status Indian. There are legal definitions for both groups. If you don't know what a Metis is, then perhaps you should learn a bit more about Canada before you continue this discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Pyrodrew
Finally, there is a big difference between actively seeking minorities, such as recruiting/posting the job in minority neighborhoods/websites/newspapers and flat out rejecting someone and everything they have to offer simply because they don't have the right skin color. |
As I mentioned before, CSC has a long list of white applicants and some of these white people will be hired. CSC is also looking for people who have different qualifications.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
You just don't get it, eh. |
Neither do you it seems.
quote:
Nice bald assertion. Let's try the reverse, a diverse workforce always creates better results, particularly in occupations that involve dealing with a multicultural population. |
Utter rubbish. You ignore that a workforce sharing common interests will work better, especially when they living in a multicultural population that they can't always relate with.
quote:
Your attempt to use an extreme example to argue against a logical position has utterly failed. The fact is that people with a criminal record are sometimes employed to counsel criminals precisely because they can say "I've been there, and I was able to change my life." Do you have some objection about employing people who have committed crimes, done their time and who are now trying to rebuild their lives? |
Nice bald assertion. You seem to assume that all criminals can be magically rehabilitated by giving them jobs that involve the crimes they have committed. Would you want your daughter to be watched over by a crossing guard who used to be a cild sex offender because he knows how those minds think?
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Prove to me that I am wrong. There are Natives who are in jail, the jail system is designed to rehabilitate (along with punish) criminals. Therefore, it stands to reason that CSC wants to help Native prisoners and one way to do that is by having a multicultural CSC staff. For specific examples, look at how the Canadian government has implemented programs that use Native culture to help criminals who are Native. |
You're the one making outlandish claims. The burden proof falls on you.
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In every social group there is someone who blames their problems on other people. Denying reality is going to help people. |
You deny that people don't cause problems for other people. Who is denying reality?
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Aye-yeah. Do I really have to explain this? |
No, don't waste your time, you probably couldn't anyway.
quote:
Companies routinely screen potential job applicants by setting specific requirements for a job, for example, 10 year's work experience. Yes, there might be someone with only five years of work experience who can do the job just as well, but so what. And yes, the specific requirements discriminate against those who do not meet the requirements, but so what. |
Once again you have missed the point and are trying to evade the issue.
quote:
No, I ignore your pointless comment. In Canada, a Native person in this context means a Status Indian. Someone who is 1/16th Native is either a Metis or not, but not a Status Indian. There are legal definitions for both groups. If you don't know what a Metis is, then perhaps you should learn a bit more about Canada before you continue this discussion. |
Do I even need point out what is wrong with this?
quote:
As I mentioned before, CSC has a long list of white applicants and some of these white people will be hired. CSC is also looking for people who have different qualifications. |
It's called reading the article. Perhaps you should, and read some of the other posts before making claims like this.
 That was good fun, but I don't know how you expect to have people take you seriously doing it.
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Yup, telling people was wrong- they should have taken the applications anyway, and simply held on to them. The mistake was, as was said before, being stupid about telling people not to apply. Its not like you need to tell people what is done with their application once you get them, even if all you do is thrown them in the trash.
Poor PR all around by the Correction services. |
Good point GePap. You clarified the entire PC mindset in a few sentences:
Do not tell anyone the obvious truth. Get you PR system in good order so you can lie more effectively. And pretend that the obvious truth is not really true. You're not a Democrat are you?
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24-02-2005 03:52
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