25-02-2005 00:45									#31
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We'll protect Canada anyway. Remember, the US still controls the skies - just about everywhere I think. Yeah, everywhere.

	25-02-2005 00:59									#32
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yep, it's a win-win situation for Canada.

Because of the way the earth is shaped, the shortest route is the northern route. Missiles will be going through Alaska (or north pole). Or if for some reason Europe attacks us- it will go through Greenland and Canada from that direction.

	25-02-2005 04:02									#33
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quote: Aggie's just pissed that NZ wasn't invited to the party.

Why would we be? We told America to get stuffed 20 years ago.

	25-02-2005 04:06									#34
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quote: What irks me about Martin's indecisiveness on this file is the impression he's pandering to the anti-American sentiments on the Canadian left by not participating. But then, if you ask me, the Liberals have been playing the anti-American card for at least the past three years, which disgusts me no end.

Vote for the Bigot American Bumlick (oops I mean Tory) party then.

	25-02-2005 04:52									#35
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quote: Originally posted by optimus2861 ^ Oh, no, when you've got MPs and Prime Ministerial aides trotting out lines like "American bastards" and stomping on presidential dolls on television, it's more than just "We're not American". (Note that Parrish wasn't turfed until she trash-talked Martin himself; I think there's even money that if she hadn't done that, she'd still be in caucus) It's been toned down under Martin to some degree (well, at least since Parrish got kicked out), but the undercurrent's still there.

It's more than an undercurrent - it's mainstream.

BTW, have you ever asked yourself how they will intercept incoming missiles, where they will intercept incoming missiles and what happens to the people below the interception?

	25-02-2005 11:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I have no problem with full cooperation with them on defense of North America, but missile defense is a bad idea plain and simple.

How to contradict yourself in one easy lesson.

	25-02-2005 11:44									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos All Russian and Chinese missiles would enter via the poles, as the Chinese house their missles in the extreme north. NK's would probobly clip British Colombia, depending on where in the US they are shooting at.

Assuming, of course, that the guidance worked and it didn't sail off towards Regina.

	25-02-2005 11:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh It's more than an undercurrent - it's mainstream. BTW, have you ever asked yourself how they will intercept incoming missiles, where they will intercept incoming missiles and what happens to the people below the interception?

One would hope out at sea, or maybe over Northern BC. If they had to wait too long to intercept, one might fall on Vancouver.

Most of these warheads have a deadman, don't they? The warhead is activated by pressure, isn't it? Once they go up, they are going to make a very large bang when they come down again, whereever they come down. Or was that just scifi a book I read?

Anyways, it would be good if issues like these drove people from the centre and back to the left and the right. There's no way the Liberals are ever going to be turfed until that happens.

	25-02-2005 11:56									#39
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It's mainstrem left, btw. Not mainstream period.

While Paul and Jean have been keeping the centre-right happy with tax cuts, they have had to throw a few sops to the centre-left. Like being kneejerk anti-American when they think American media isn't paying attention.

	25-02-2005 12:31									#40
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No, it's mainstream mainstream. Quible if you will, but a majority of Canadians are opposed to getting into bed with the US on missile 'defence'.

Why? Because they know that US missile interceptions will involve nuclear detonations over Canadian territory. And they know that if the US ever feels secure against nuclear retaliation, they are likely to consider a first strike against the enemy du jour.

	25-02-2005 12:47									#41
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A slim majority of Canadians. 52%. What information are they forming their opinions on? David Susuki and the CBC?

How many of them are for getting out of NORAD? Being in NORAD is about all that is needed to make us a party to BMD.

They 'know' do they? What do they 'know'?

	25-02-2005 12:54									#42
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52% is pretty mainstream, wouldn't you say? And what do you 'know'?

	25-02-2005 12:59									#43
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I sure as hell don't 'know' that BMD will make a US administration think that a first strike against a nuclear opponent is a good idea.

How retarded is the shrill opposition to this?

Have you read what American critics of their own country have to say about the use of atomic weapons?

Do you think they are mad men?

Oops. Sorry. Own goal!

Of course you do. It is the corner stone of your world view from the penthouse of North America.

	25-02-2005 13:18									#44
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quote: Anyways, it would be good if issues like these drove people from the centre and back to the left and the right. There's no way the Liberals are ever going to be turfed until that happens.

From one of my friends (an ex-Canadian bigwig diplomat): "the truth about Canadian politics is that the liberals win."

The Tories cannot win ever, unless they go back to Joe Clark style sensible conservatism. In fact they should before they get whupped again.

No-one in Ontario or Quebec is going to vote for Harper and his gayhating cohorts. And without either one of these the Tories are sunk.

I've been here long enough to realize that.

	25-02-2005 13:21									#45
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Canucks
corporate welfare

	25-02-2005 13:22									#46
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quote: A slim majority of Canadians.

I imagine a massive majority of informed Canadians.

The problems with missile defence are:

(1) It doesn't appear to work.

(2) There already exists a nuclear deterrent sufficient to make anyone think twice about launching missiles at North American. Canada is fully involved in this defensive effort.

(3) It doesn't appear to work.

(4) The point of it is not to prevent the masses of Russian missiles (and probably Chinese missiles) from striking the US, but to allow the US the ability to strike smaller nuclear powers, who only have a few weapons without fear of retaliation. That's an idiot's gamble in my view.

(5) It will cost a fortune.

(6) It doesn't appear to work.

	25-02-2005 13:26									#47
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You forgot to mention that it doesn't work.

http://www.aps.org/public_affairs/p...orts/nmd03.html

	25-02-2005 13:29									#48
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I must admit that the attitude of Canadian conservatives is a bit weird.

They ***** constantly about the gun registry debacle, but missile defence will probably cost more and be a diplomatic turd around the neck of Canadian diplomats to boot.

	25-02-2005 13:30									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Aggie's just pissed that NZ wasn't invited to the party. Why would we be? We told America to get stuffed 20 years ago.

And it made the news. Twice. Twenty years ago.

	25-02-2005 13:33									#50
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quote: And it made the news. Twice. Twenty years ago.

We're still Yank free, thank you very much.

	25-02-2005 14:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo You forgot to mention that it doesn't work.

Well yes, that too.

The main problem, however, is it is stupid. Why would a "rogue state" (whatever that is) go the length of trying to make ICBMs, when far simpler methods of delivery are available?

	25-02-2005 14:52									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: And it made the news. Twice. Twenty years ago. We're still Yank free, thank you very much.

Our pleasure!

	25-02-2005 14:52									#53
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UR, the short anwser is it is corporate welfare for defense contractors who give money to Republicans.

	25-02-2005 15:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I must admit that the attitude of Canadian conservatives is a bit weird. They ***** constantly about the gun registry debacle, but missile defence will probably cost more and be a diplomatic turd around the neck of Canadian diplomats to boot.

Won't cost us a dime, sweetheart.

	25-02-2005 15:37									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon (4) The point of it is not to prevent the masses of Russian missiles (and probably Chinese missiles) from striking the US, but to allow the US the ability to strike smaller nuclear powers, who only have a few weapons without fear of retaliation. That's an idiot's gamble in my view.

You seem to think the Yanks are a bunch of idiots most of the time.

Why do you bet so heavily there will never be any idiots elsewhere with a few crude super-V2s?

	25-02-2005 17:13									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: A slim majority of Canadians. I imagine a massive majority of informed Canadians. The problems with missile defence are: (1) It doesn't appear to work. (2) There already exists a nuclear deterrent sufficient to make anyone think twice about launching missiles at North American. Canada is fully involved in this defensive effort. (3) It doesn't appear to work. (4) The point of it is not to prevent the masses of Russian missiles (and probably Chinese missiles) from striking the US, but to allow the US the ability to strike smaller nuclear powers, who only have a few weapons without fear of retaliation. That's an idiot's gamble in my view. (5) It will cost a fortune. (6) It doesn't appear to work.

Point 2 is valid. Point 4 is kinda valid. The other points are BS.

	25-02-2005 19:38									#57
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It must be that damn French insertion that contaminates the Anglo-Saxon spirit of Canada.

BTW, missile defence -- Progress can't be stopped. But, as usual, ones will parasitize at the expense of others.

	25-02-2005 20:16									#58
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quote: Who would fire a missile towards Canada anyway?

Who shares the longest border with Canada?

	25-02-2005 21:00									#59
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Why? Because they know that US missile interceptions will involve nuclear detonations over Canadian territory. And they know that if the US ever feels secure against nuclear retaliation, they are likely to consider a first strike against the enemy du jour.

Two counter-points:

1) Do you think for one second that because we say "No", the United States will hesitate for even one second to shoot down an incoming missile over Canadian territory if they feel they have to?

2) No democratic government would survive the political fallout from initiating a nuclear first strike against an adversary, even the most hard-line Republican administration you can think of. At the very least, the government would paralyse with investigations, inquires, hearings, and probably a few impeachment proceedings. To believe that the United States is going to go off half-cocked and start nuking other countries while boasting they can't be touched -- you've been listening to the NDP too much or something. Pure anti-American drivel.

	25-02-2005 22:07									#60
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No democratic government would survive if it decided to launch an unprovoked attack against an insignificant country that posed no threat.