26-02-2005 00:59									#31
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Anyone on who thinks that its only the left who hate Bush is living in a dreamworld.

I can only speak from the UK (where the default setting is hating Europe more than the US) but apart from the overwhelming statistical evidence posted above, I can't remember the last time I ever spoke to anyone (including my Dad with a 100% Conservative voting record over his entire life) who thinks he's anything other than a moron.

The problem for Bush is that even those with zero interest in politics hate him. Its not like the 80s when the European politically active left hated Reagon.

Last edited by Zulu Elephant on 26-02-2005 at 01:06

	26-02-2005 01:27									#32
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I'd like to go to Mainz. Is Gutenbergs first press still extant?

Afaik it is only a reconstructed press they have (as Gutenberg's whole workshop is reconstructed there ).....those bibles there are original from Gutenberg's times otoh.....

	26-02-2005 01:29									#33
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Well, I've seen 3 of the existing Gutenbergs... might as well add some more to my list.

	26-02-2005 01:42									#34
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quote: no. The fact is that the whole world does not hate Bush. The European Left hates Bush. That is not all of Europe. There were large supportive crowds in Slovakia to listen to his speech on democracy.

You're shitting me right?

My grandfather, a lifelong Tory and strong Thatcherite, absolutely loathes Bush.

I nearly died from shock when he told me this. In fact he brought it up, which is even weirder. Then he started ranting (not in his nature) and if I'd closed my eyes I could have sworn that Noam Chomsky was in the room.

When people like him start talking like this, it tells you a lot.

Even people back home in New Zealand, where most people are not particularly political, hate Bush.

Sample conversation from my last visit with acquaintances at the pub (I am known as a political person).

Them: "Hey Ag! How's it going? I thought you were in Canada."

Me: "Yep."

Them: "Do folks in Canada hate that Bush pr*ck as much as we do?"

	26-02-2005 03:19									#35
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Right. Hey, people ALL OVER THE WORLD hate Bush, left, right , what ever. The ones in the left would prolly be more eager to hate whoever the US president is, but this time, it's everyone ganging up on his image, equally. This is just a fact and there's no way around it.

Of course not everyone hates him, but let's just say he's not popular around here, or in there either. Or in the rest of the parts of the world. There's no need to take Europe under scrutiny, really, because like I said, I feel this might be one of the more cooler places, and unlike in most parts of the world, there still are those who do not hate Bush.

	26-02-2005 04:13									#36
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I hate Bush.

	26-02-2005 04:16									#37
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I read that there were pro-Bush signs at the rallies in Lebanon

But the commitments for training are Iraq are good, as is the discussion esp with Germany wrt Iran. Its a long way to go, but its a start. And of course the first goal is reconciling with the governments, who are focused on international policy and looking forward. The peoples are more focused on the past division, and apparently on issues of religion, style, etc.

The slovaks surprised me though.

	26-02-2005 04:25									#38
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But there still are fine littile nuances to be picked on, because they are important ones. For example, many in the left in Europe hate Bush, but who are we really kidding, they are modded to that and would prolly hate just about anyone leading the US, unless it would RADICALLY change its politics.
However, this still doesn't make everyone on the left hate the US per se, or its citizens. But it sure sounds like it when they are wild carrying banners with provocative slogans on them, which I would like to remind is the point of the whole banner and protest, to be provocative, to be seen, thus have some actual voice for your opinion.

Righties, not liking the Bush very much, well, they have nothing against US, citizens and rarely even for the politics it practices, but some do feel strongly that he is incompetent of leading such a big country and its vast lands. You have to remember, in most European countries, in Western Euro countries, managment leading often beats leadership leading hands down. Strong leadership is a great quality only if the direction is right. So you see, he is not leading us, he is leading US, so outside US we only see a strong leadership type with little results, where as being convincing and strong in front of the home crowd would be doing enough in a way, time for strong leadership and charisma. This is important thing to acknowledge. So in here it seems nothing but hot air, and the only thing you can trust is more wars. Keep on the offensive. To American, it sounds better to keep the mess down somewhere else than home. This is logical. For the rest, it's not percieved the same, logical also.

So these things lead most people not like the president, regardless of their political beliefs.

HOWEVER, the trip he has made is not wasted one. I see it as a good one, plus let's not exaggarate the lacking of welcome. The visit was more like in the news and everyoen going 'oh really? Was he here? What did they talk about? Ah ok.. are you sure?'. That type of a thing. Deals or no deals, showing up is always nice. Little one on one talking with other leaders, it's good. And the countries are as close as people think they are. It's not a factual thing, unless there are some kind of embargos etc included, but if the relations are normal, like US and Europe most definitely have, then after that it's up to what people think, how close are they. So things like these boost it up, and it doesn't help anyone to think there's somekind of a gap. Because it's imaginary one anyway. Working together, always better. So it was not a trip gone waste.

And if you ask me, I'd say the protests were surprisingly tame and lame. Like I said before, it wasn't that much big of a deal, and you had bigger ones in your own country . Then again, he wasn't here to push certain things, but I think it was clear to everyone it was more like a let's do a facelift, and even the left and right in here understands working togehter is important, and beef between them and one man is not worth the trouble because it's only beef with one man for most, so the trip was a success in a way anyway

	26-02-2005 04:30									#39
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"But the commitments for training are Iraq are good, as is the discussion esp with Germany wrt Iran."

Yes. Even if they say well they got more in return, the deal is there are no principle blocks anymore. It's done small, but it's done so that's a kind of .. agreement of some sort.

"The slovaks surprised me though."

Not really. Why do you think 'the new europe' is seemingly very happy to see dubya? Do you think it's because they genuinely love him, or because they are kissing ass to get some nice deals going on?

the western europe is too ... its ego gets on the way with ass kissing and it can't be done. And it shouldn't do it anyway. And whoever wants deals, they should kiss ass if it brings better results for growing economies and defense etc. But I'm just saying, what goes up, must come down , so save up some money and see it through first.

	26-02-2005 05:54									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I hate Bush.

I always know you were a Cheney lover.

	26-02-2005 06:12									#41
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quote: I always know you were a Cheney lover.

Oops.. found out.

	26-02-2005 11:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat no. The fact is that the whole world does not hate Bush. The European Left hates Bush. That is not all of Europe. There were large supportive crowds in Slovakia to listen to his speech on democracy. These protests we see in Gemany or France are organized by the Left. Some European countries like France and Germany have very active and strong socialist parties which mobilize their members to go out and protest Bush because he is on the "right". Heck, these protests are routine. When I lived in France, I saw lots of protests by labor unions and other groups everytime a law or policy was proposed that they did not like. It's no big deal. We can hardly say that the whole world hates Bush. [q] Sorry to disappoint you here but even people on the right (in Europe) don't really like Bush. No need to mobilize anyone, we just don't bother(anymore). [q] That's normal procedure. You don't think that foreign leaders actually sit down and write the treaties themselves, do you? There is always a lot of behind the scenes negotiations with diplomats doing the detailed work. The summits between foreign leaders are usually photo ops anyway.

Eugh, that's what I said, no?

quote: Even if it is an old treaty, it's still a good thing. [/QUOTE]

True that

	26-02-2005 15:03									#43
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I read that there were pro-Bush signs at the rallies in Lebanon

What, Hezbollah for Bush ?


I suppose it make sense that the alleged 'parties of God' have a mutual support pact.

	26-02-2005 15:41									#44
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Its been mentioned about the deal that Russia and America have over the nuclear capability that Iran can't be allowed to have. And for stability in the region i can see the point fo this arguement. And i can also see why Iran might be quite keen to have some, what with Iraq just next door etc

Still this article surprised me a little. It seems that this agreement between Russia and the US over Iran might be less substantial than i was led to believe?

link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/4299657.stm

Will the US accept/allow the russians to have such a controlling say in the matter.Does the US really trust Russia enough?

	26-02-2005 16:53									#45
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I think when it wants too, the US always has a choice. So i'm wondering what happened here?