28-02-2005 21:21									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist What's "NEP" in context?

It was the National Energy Policy (or Program, used interchangably) that the Trudeau government enacted in 1980. Vastly simplified, it determined that oil revenues generated anywhere in Canada were to be the purview of the federal government and not for the benefit of whatever province actually had the oil. This, along with other snubs (real or perceived) pissed western Canadians off since almost all the oil was being produced in Alberta (mainly) and BC (secondarily). The sentiment was that western Canada was being exploited in order to keep central Canada's (ie. Ontario and Quebec) industry humming along.

	28-02-2005 21:42									#62
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NYE - While the issue is real and the points you make valid please don't overestimate the concern felt by the average Ontario resident.

The issue more accurately reflects on MCGuilty and his political troubles in the province. He is trying the age old 'bash the feds' approach to distract from provincial political problems.

The problem for the not so good Premier is that he is unlikely to gain much support this time round. Liberals don't care to see their federal cousins getting slagged and the rest of the voters are already convinced MCGuinty is a lightweight and are looking forward to replacing him.

Agathon - I agree. The voters in this province are idiots. Just look at the current government.

	28-02-2005 22:03									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In any event, we have redistribution as well. It's just done differently and makes slightly more sense than the Canadian system.

You take from the Democrats and give to the Republicans.

	28-02-2005 22:18									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil The issue more accurately reflects on MCGuilty and his political troubles in the province. He is trying the age old 'bash the feds' approach to distract from provincial political problems. The problem for the not so good Premier is that he is unlikely to gain much support this time round. Liberals don't care to see their federal cousins getting slagged and the rest of the voters are already convinced MCGuinty is a lightweight and are looking forward to replacing him.

Edit: As for the thread,

	28-02-2005 22:18									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The US invading Alberta.

If Alberta seceded from Canada and applied to join the U.S., it would be part of the U.S. (B.C. also). We've got contingency plans going back before the Meech Lake days for that. We want the oil and minerals.

	28-02-2005 22:46									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Alberta seceded from Canada and applied to join the U.S., it would be part of the U.S. (B.C. also). We've got contingency plans going back before the Meech Lake days for that. We want the oil and minerals.

I thought you wanted Albertan rednecks too

	28-02-2005 22:51									#67
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when we don't want areas to leave, we fight them

when canada doesn't, it pays them money

just a different way of doing things

Jon Miller

	28-02-2005 23:00									#68
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Jon: Aren't you Canadian?

	28-02-2005 23:03									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Alberta seceded from Canada and applied to join the U.S., it would be part of the U.S. (B.C. also). We've got contingency plans going back before the Meech Lake days for that. We want the oil and minerals.

Plus you need to balance things since Alberta is likely a red state and BC a blue state.


Seriously, I don't see secession as being even remotely on the radar screen right now . . .

	28-02-2005 23:21									#70
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I was just contradicting my comrade.

	28-02-2005 23:46									#71
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quote: If Alberta seceded from Canada and applied to join the U.S., it would be part of the U.S. (B.C. also). We've got contingency plans going back before the Meech Lake days for that. We want the oil and minerals.

The US also has plans for invading virtually everywhere. It gives new and spurious officials something to do.

Needless to say, Alberta cannot unilaterally secede from Canada (not even Quebec can), and even it it attempted to, the diplomatic price the US would pay with its biggest trading partner and its allies would be too great. It's about as realistic as Vermont joining Canada.

Simpler and cheaper to buy Alberta's oil. Alberta is willing to sell it and the US to buy it. What's the problem.

But this is all BS anyway, because NYE represents the lunatic fringe of Albertan opinion on this matter.

	28-02-2005 23:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon [q] But this is all BS anyway, because NYE represents the lunatic fringe of Albertan opinion on this matter.

Nice troll, but not true.

I can think of another poster that would be more apt for the "lunatic fringe" label.....

	01-03-2005 00:01									#73
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quote: Nice troll, but not true. I can think of another poster that would be more apt for the "lunatic fringe" label.....

Actually, you're right. He used to be a separatist, I don't know if he still is. But he never advocated American invasion.

	01-03-2005 00:14									#74
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I certainly cannot speak for NYE but I don't believe he is a separatist at all.

I guess like using the phrase "Israeli apartheid", implying he is a separatist adds a little flourish to your nonsense. Damn the facts.

	01-03-2005 00:16									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: If Alberta seceded from Canada and applied to join the U.S., it would be part of the U.S. (B.C. also). We've got contingency plans going back before the Meech Lake days for that. We want the oil and minerals. The US also has plans for invading virtually everywhere.

These aren't invasion plans. If Alberta or B.C. secedes and asks to join the U.S., the Adminsitration will recommend it, and the Senate will likely confirm the annexation treaty. Under the Canadian confederation, my understanding is that any province has the right to opt out and go their own way.

	01-03-2005 00:18									#76
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quote: Under the Canadian confederation, my understanding is that any province has the right to opt out and go their own way.

In short: no.

	01-03-2005 00:25									#77
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How would you stop it? With that army that you have no use for?

	01-03-2005 00:34									#78
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Leting provinces, regions, and people secede.

Them join the US afterwards... suckers.

	01-03-2005 00:43									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But this is all BS anyway, because NYE represents the lunatic fringe of Albertan opinion on this matter.

You have a very queer memory.

You said 'get rid of federalism'.

I said 4 or 5 provinces would have none of it.

You said Quebec might be a problem, but none of the rest would have any choice.

I said something stupid about American tanks to emphasize that we do have a choice. It was a stupid comment in reply to stupid comments, but now you want to forget about your stupid comments.

As for what the opinions of Alberta, or the rest of Canada are, I hardly think a Marxist teacher's assistant at the University of Toronto whose been here all of, what, 4 years? has a very firm grasp of the views of very many Canadians.

	01-03-2005 00:46									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Needless to say, Alberta cannot unilaterally secede from Canada (not even Quebec can), and even it it attempted to, the diplomatic price the US would pay with its biggest trading partner and its allies would be too great. It's about as realistic as Vermont joining Canada.

Then what is the use of paying the frenchies off to stay in if they can't simply leave? (if that is what is being done)

Here you said

quote: That's because there is a serious separatist threat.

And now your saying that they can't really do this. Either they are a serious separatist threat or like Alberta they can't unilaterally secede in which case treat them like every other provence. Seems rather simply doesn't it.

	01-03-2005 00:47									#81
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You have a very queer memory. You said 'get rid of federalism'. I said 4 or 5 provinces would have none of it. You said Quebec might be a problem, but none of the rest would have any choice. I said something stupid about American tanks to emphasize that we do have a choice. It was a stupid comment in reply to stupid comments, but now you want to forget about your stupid comments. As for what the opinions of Alberta, or the rest of Canada are, I hardly think a Marxist teacher's assistant at the University of Toronto whose been here all of, what, 4 years? has a very firm grasp of the views of very many Canadians.

I love Canadian politics OT threads.

	01-03-2005 00:49									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Krill How would you stop it? With that army that you have no use for?

He wouldn't. He doesn't know what he's talking about, but he's a professional blatherer so he feels he has to say something on a topic he knows next to nothing about.

	01-03-2005 00:50									#83
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quote: Originally posted by joncha I love Canadian politics OT threads.

	01-03-2005 00:53									#84
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Get a clue. Quebec cannot legally separate. No province can (there is nothing in the law that requires the Federal government to recognize a separatist referendum as binding). But support for it there could easily increase back to previous levels. Then you have a real problem on your hands if they win a referendum. Such a referendum doesn't give them the right to separate, but it might make it inevitable. Imposing the Anglo Federal government on Quebec would be nuclear compared to doing it to other provinces due to the fact that they are French.

That won't happen in Alberta, where separatism is a fringe phenomenon.

NYE said that American tanks would appear in Alberta if the Canadian Federal government attempted to get rid of provincial governments or curtail their power. I said that's really funny.

I still think it is a hoot.

	01-03-2005 00:55									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Jon: Aren't you Canadian?

I wish I was

Jon Miller

	01-03-2005 00:57									#86
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quote: As for what the opinions of Alberta, or the rest of Canada are, I hardly think a Marxist teacher's assistant at the University of Toronto whose been here all of, what, 4 years? has a very firm grasp of the views of very many Canadians.

Whatever. Your opinions are the usual reactionary ignorant crap. Like your constant militarist paranoia for instance.

I've lived here long enough to realize that western whining is effectively meaningless.

In fact, you'd only have to holiday here for two weeks to realize that, which makes it even more amazing that some folk out west still don't get it.

	01-03-2005 01:09									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Then what is the use of paying the frenchies off to stay in if they can't simply leave? (if that is what is being done) And now your saying that they can't really do this. Either they are a serious separatist threat or like Alberta they can't unilaterally secede in which case treat them like every other provence. Seems rather simply doesn't it.

well its not that simple.

My recollection ( I could very well be wrong here) is that the Canadian constitution is silent on the whole topic of separation of a province. It doesn't say it is allowed and it doesn't say it is not allowed. It is not even contemplated as an issue, so nobody has any idea how separation would work in practice.

Now there is a reality that even if the constitution says something could not be done, that does not mean it cannot be done. Constitutions can be amended and they are sometimes ignored.

Many Canadians seem to feel that if enough people in a province wanted to leave then, well, they should be allowed to go. After all, Canada is not based on the idea of forcing huge chunks of people being part of something they don't want ( although tehre are questions as to the land a province should take with them if they separated-- ie the aboriginals in northern Quebec want no part of a separate Quebec and people have talked about their separation from Quebec if the issue arose). Now in Quebec there is a significant minority that are Quebec nationalists and who support separation regardless of the the circumstances. They are big enough a group that the issue will never go away. But the reality is that unless some issue galvanizes the rest of the population, its unlikely that separation would EVER have the support of more than half the population there. Even fuzzy questions talking about greater Quebec sovereignty have never quite gotten to the 1/2 mark

As to the Canadian army . . . even if it were the best military force in the world, how exactly do you stop the peaceful separation of a province?? Do you shoot citizens? Do you arrest the premier and if so on what charge??

	01-03-2005 01:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I wish I was Jon Miller

No one is holding you back. If you really wished it then find a way to move.

	01-03-2005 01:21									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber No one is holding you back. If you really wished it then find a way to move.

He'd still be american. There's unfortunetly no way to fix poor breeding.

	01-03-2005 01:23									#90
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd He'd still be american. There's unfortunetly no way to fix poor breeding.

You demonstrate that time and time again