05-03-2005 21:08									#31
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The book says that all the facts and stuff mentioned in it are true...

	05-03-2005 21:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How is this as bad as a book listed as fiction?

As Kuci said, because Dan Brown claim that the book is based on scientific facts. Facts that are proved to be bogus and a really elaborate prank that got out of hand...

	05-03-2005 21:41									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker

Damn dirty joke stealer!

	05-03-2005 21:42									#34
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Don't you guys know? The nazis had nuclear bombs, flying saucers, time machines, androids, cyborgs, giant robots, submerged aircraft carriers, the holy grail, the ark of the covenant, vampires, werewolves, interdimensional gateways to hell, giant mutant animals, and spaceships!

Have TV, film, and books taught us nothing!

	05-03-2005 21:45									#35
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I think the "dirty bomb" argument is the most possible, but the notion they were working on anything close to a functional nuclear bomb is simply absurd. German scientists in 1944-45 were more than a little preoccupied with other matters, not to mention seriously hampered by a lack of critical resources.

	05-03-2005 22:47									#36
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I think that ibn the end Hitler regretted not giving the A-bomb enough priority. German scientists, knowing full well that they didn't have the time or facilities to make a true A-bomb may have suggested building a dirty bomb as being the next best thing. That the kind of nuclear material they had available might not have been the most effective for such a purpose may not have been a drawback for a bunch of guys hoping to avoid a Gestapo firing squad, particularily if they knew that western allied troops, and liberation from the madman's grasp, were only days or weeks away.

	05-03-2005 23:44									#37
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I think their real regret was not giving air superiority its due. Hence the frantic rush towards jet engines. They got killed from the air.

	06-03-2005 01:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think their real regret was not giving air superiority its due. Hence the frantic rush towards jet engines. They got killed from the air.

I seem to recall someone demonstrating that had the Germans been able to bring jet fighters into full production even as early as 1943 it wouldn't have made a difference because they didn't have the capability of prducing enough fuel. The early jet were rapacious fuel guzzlers. Had they converted completely to jets they wouldn't have been able to fly enough sorties to make a difference.

	06-03-2005 03:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Don't you guys know? The nazis had nuclear bombs, flying saucers, time machines, androids, cyborgs, giant robots, submerged aircraft carriers, the holy grail, the ark of the covenant, vampires, werewolves, interdimensional gateways to hell, giant mutant animals, and spaceships! Have TV, film, and books taught us nothing!

And don't forget that in the 70's they cloned a fully grown adult hitler in brazil, or somehwere, until Wonder Woman foiled their plans

	06-03-2005 03:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I seem to recall someone demonstrating that had the Germans been able to bring jet fighters into full production even as early as 1943 it wouldn't have made a difference because they didn't have the capability of prducing enough fuel. The early jet were rapacious fuel guzzlers. Had they converted completely to jets they wouldn't have been able to fly enough sorties to make a difference.

True, but Hitler did not realize the full potential of even non-jet air power in the war when he had the chance. The German war machine's chief focus was armor, not air power (despite the effective use of it early on). Had they made air superiority their number one concern (and not squandered the Luftwaffe on the mindnumbingly stupid Battle of Britain), they would have been in a far better position to deal with Allied bombing strikes.

	06-03-2005 05:21									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov True, but Hitler did not realize the full potential of even non-jet air power in the war when he had the chance. The German war machine's chief focus was armor, not air power (despite the effective use of it early on). Had they made air superiority their number one concern (and not squandered the Luftwaffe on the mindnumbingly stupid Battle of Britain), they would have been in a far better position to deal with Allied bombing strikes.

Not really. The main german geopolitical concern was the conquest of the east-that requires land forces- in the perfect world, the allied bombing startegy woulkd have been a non-issue, since conquest of the east would theoretically given germany control of enough oil and resources to keep the allies at bay and accross the Channel, thought hopefully actually forced the UK to declare peace.

You don;t build a military force with the expectation of having to defend the homeland if you go into the offensive, you make one to win when you go into the offensive. The Germans had plenty of aircraft to deal with the allies- oil was always the biggest problem, that and manpower. The germans gave their pilots tiny amounts of training, cause training means flying, flying means using up oil. So as the war went on the germans would lose their pilots with half a decade of experience and were forced to replace them with rank amateurs. And the pressure of facing a huge land war vs the Soviets meant manpower was always short.

The Germans were not beaten by allied bombing. They were beaten by allied armies, mainly Soviet ones. Air superiority alone was not going to win them the east.

	06-03-2005 09:44									#42
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Read Hitler's Miracle Weapons by Friedrich Georg, pub by Helion.

	06-03-2005 09:52									#43
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I had a whole thing typed and then AOL crashed, so I will not retype the whole thing. If you do read Miracle Weapons then you should also read Warplane of the Third Reich by William Green. Most of the planes in Miracle are shown in Warplane.

	06-03-2005 10:04									#44
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On page 29 of Miracle Weapons there is a picture of a Bf 109 K-4 Work Number 330/75 of III/JG 51 taking off from the Junkerstroylhof airfield in April 1945. Under the fuselage it is carrying a completely unknown bomb. Is this Hitler's small uranium bombs? Photograph Griel collection.

	06-03-2005 10:42									#45
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Page 53 of Miracle Weapons. They talk about a Stratosphere Bomb. Hitler was building Uranium bombs. We dropped a Uranium bomb on Hiroshima. The only problem with this is we the US did not build any Uranium bombs until after the war. Where did we get one? Also the first Uranium bomb that we did build was so big, it would not fit in a B-29 bomb bay. However the Hiroshima bomb was fitted with no problems.
The US built Plutonium bombs. We tested a Plutonium bomb, but never tested Unranium bomb before dropping it on Hiroshima. Why?

	06-03-2005 11:47									#47
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Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green.

	06-03-2005 12:12									#48
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I never really understood this. Why did Russia have such a large army?

	06-03-2005 15:30									#49
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No they didn't. As of 1945 the only working nuclear reactors ever built were in the US

That may be so - but I do know a small experimental nuclear related facility of some kind was discovered - it may have been a centrifuge or something like that. US troops found it - Heisenberg and his students were using it. It was in a building disguised as a house. I saw film of it.

I can't find a link. Type Nazi reactor into google these days and all you get is Iraq and Bush links

	06-03-2005 16:13									#50
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Centrifuge is quite possible. Could also have built a bombardment chamber to create microscopic quantities of transuranic elements.

Either way, they were not yet at the point where they had built a self-sustaining nuclear reactor (the only realistic way to get mass quantities of plutonium), nor had they thown as much into the brute-force method of centrifuging uranium as had the US in 1942.

They were certainly working on the problem, but the amount of engineering effort involved was well beyond their capacity in any reasonable timeframe.

If Heisenberg had managed to get an reactor going early in the warinstead of rejecting graphite as a moderator then they might have had a shot at it. The actual effort involved would have been much lower, with higher ingenuity required.

	06-03-2005 16:18									#51
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Checked up again. The Germans had in fact built several test reactors, but their insistence on the use of heavy water would have made reaching criticality difficult, and the fact that they had to move around constantly in 1944 and 1945 put criticality beyond their reach. They never managed to create a self-sustaining reaction, although they did manage to demonstrate neutron multiplication on a number of occasions.

They needed at least the same 30+ months of working reactors that the Americans needed to build their first plutonium bomb. Probably more. They had a few very good physicists, but were lacking in the sheer mass of brainpower the US was able to assemble for Manhattan.

	06-03-2005 16:55									#52
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That fits with what I recall - what was discovered showed a. the nazis were more advanced than the allies suspected but b. their efforts were experimental and primitive and there wasn't a chance they could produce a bomb in the near future because there wasn't enough invested by a long shot.

Most people don't realise the massive engineering and financial investment that went into the A bomb. Some argue only the US was capable of it. The Soviets got hold of the nuclear secrets in 1944/5 but didn't produce a bomb for 5 years.

This one reason why Germany opted for rocket and jet development.

	06-03-2005 20:05									#53
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The Axis may have had the minds at first, but in response to their politics and policies a large number fled both Germany and Italy. In addition, I saw an interesting special - may have been the same one that I saw on the Hitler - I mean History Channel. They showed how they were multiple projects working on nuclear weapons, just that Heisenberg was number one. The Nazi prediliction for individual beauracratic fiefdoms did a very good job of difusing their effort.

(oh, and AH - my little girl, who is sitting on my lap, pointed to your sig and said "Horse, HORSE .... ride ride" She's two today, and loves horses)

	06-03-2005 23:26									#54
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From the Introduction of Miracle Weapons
'I refused to use a weapon which could have destroyed the whole of civilization'. Those words were spoken by Hermann Goring when he was arrested by the Allies on 7 May 1945.

In one book, I came across a piece of information that aroused my curiosity. In 1945, Allied troops in Prague were said to have captured a Heinkel He 177 that was equipped to drop nuclear weapons.

	06-03-2005 23:30									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear I never really understood this. Why did Russia have such a large army?

Because it was the largest nation in the world, afraid its neighbors may have aggressive intents and thus needed a huge force to secure the country and ward off all possible aggressors, which to someone like Stalin was basically every single state out there with the possibility of attacking the USSR, Poland, Germany, Japan, the UK, the US, France, you name it.

	06-03-2005 23:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph From the Introduction of Miracle Weapons 'I refused to use a weapon which could have destroyed the whole of civilization'. Those words were spoken by Hermann Goring when he was arrested by the Allies on 7 May 1945. In one book, I came across a piece of information that aroused my curiosity. In 1945, Allied troops in Prague were said to have captured a Heinkel He 177 that was equipped to drop nuclear weapons.

so where are these nukes then?

	06-03-2005 23:57									#57
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Try to upload a page but it did not work.

	06-03-2005 23:57									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That fits with what I recall - what was discovered showed a. the nazis were more advanced than the allies suspected but b. their efforts were experimental and primitive and there wasn't a chance they could produce a bomb in the near future because there wasn't enough invested by a long shot. Most people don't realise the massive engineering and financial investment that went into the A bomb. Some argue only the US was capable of it. The Soviets got hold of the nuclear secrets in 1944/5 but didn't produce a bomb for 5 years. This one reason why Germany opted for rocket and jet development.

exactly. As I said earlier. It took 10% of all the electricity in the U.S. for Oak Ridge. It took the entire war to get enough Uranium-235 for 1 bomb!! And look at the size of oak ridge during the war! Do you think allied bombers wouldn't have noticed that?

germany had ****. heavy water doesn't do ****. Until you show me some uranium or plutonium, then I'll continue to believe they had nothing.

	07-03-2005 00:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident so where are these nukes then?

The Russian and the US took them.
Dis how do you drop a bomb that you did not build on H. Japan? How come the Soviets were so fast in building a bomb after the war. Their Hyd. came just 2 years after ours.

	07-03-2005 00:19									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That may be so - but I do know a small experimental nuclear related facility of some kind was discovered - it may have been a centrifuge or something like that. US troops found it - Heisenberg and his students were using it. It was in a building disguised as a house. I saw film of it. I can't find a link. Type Nazi reactor into google these days and all you get is Iraq and Bush links

There were several research sites. KWA Kaiser Wilhelm Institut in Berlin-Dahlem, Gottow HWA, Miersdorf near Berlin, Prague area (Skoda), & Thuringia.