30-05-2005 06:01									#61
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Anything that is fun is fair game IMO. I am sure MZ can be trusted to be fun.

	30-05-2005 10:48									#62
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Why not, the idea was to have fun.

	05-06-2005 01:38									#63
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Well, this is as good a place as any to start talking.

What are peoples individuals views on sharing Victory? NYE, Aeson, DeepO, Theseus and myself have all posted, and we preety much detest, if not loathe it. Togas, the last time I saw him post about the PTWDG he was full of vitriol and venom.

Vondrack and Zargon, Trip as well, no one seems to accept it with joy.


And, (maybe) more importantly, what would you suggest that we do with this issue when it comes to a CIVDG?

	05-06-2005 04:03									#64
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realistically nothing can be done, so long as none can stand against the would be co-victors. Its not like you can force two teams to go to war.

Well, I suppose you could have a rule stating that there could only be one winner, but even that would be overridden in such a case.

Personally, I would rather lose to the knife point of a 2x1 than accept half a victory, but that's just me, and maybe my viewpoint would change if I were in other shoes.

	05-06-2005 09:17									#65
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Enough. We have said our piece, I think.

(but damn, I liked your phrase, sleepy: "lose to the knife point of a 2x1 than accept half a victory"... poetry)

	05-06-2005 09:36									#66
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Just as Aeson, rightly, asked for restraint while he was playing out the end-game.. I ask for restraint now.

Now that the game is effectively over, and unsatisfactorily (not losing, but the 'shared win' thing) there is a tendency (yeah, me too) to unleash...

Don't.

We, GS, have been who we are. The founders and the players... my god, what a performance! Just commenting on the most recent, Aeson, you are an artist, Michelangelo. Thank the Civ gods that you came back.

I am well satisfied with US... and will be again.

	05-06-2005 09:47									#67
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I'm through. There's no more point to it, really.

Game set match, we were manipulated quite effectively. Once they figured they couldn't beat us, they used us to kill lego and then waited for nukes. Would have tried the same if I were in their shoes.

Who expected teams to play for a tie? Must have been nice knowing that you had a victory deal in place even before lego was dispatched.

Personally, I overestimated the killer instinct of each team. I expected them to play to win, but ND, who could easily have won, just sat back and let everyone else destroy each other. Ho hum.

	05-06-2005 09:59									#68
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There won't be another MP DG for me if the issue isn't settled. Playing a game with shared victory looming on the horizon (at best) is pointless.

	05-06-2005 12:01									#69
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ditto

	05-06-2005 16:07									#70
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I agree on settling the issue, however perhaps we've got to step back for a while and bring it up later. Being called a sore loser hurts, as for me at least it has little to do with the feeling I've got. It's not that this shared victory thing is the only thing that cost us the game, even if it severely rigged it we could very well have lost in other ways.

In a way, everyone has been setting their own rules in this game, us included. However not so far-reaching as this. So we need discussion on where the boundaries are before starting. But... you can never foresee everything, you can't enumerate every single possibility beforehand, only those that you know. And there still is a chance that teams keep doing it secretly.

I think we need three things for a future game:
1. some general set of high-level rules everyone agrees to (no shared victory, no rescues of nearly extinct teams, no cheating, not combining strengths unless official in-game (like sending all your gpt in return for research))
2. the acceptance, in principle, not to disadvantage other teams because of 'smart' bending of the rules
3. an overseer commitee (judges if you like) that can handle all complaints and also proactively forbids certain actions. I feel this shared victory should have been forbidden by Trip at the first mention, but Trip was our eye, officially our historian not our judge. And most of the times he only acts after complaints. In the present system, we should have formally complained, so that after a ruling we could go back to the first mentionings of the alliance and replay the whole thing from there. Impossible.

We've got to be reasonable too: in the beginning we did bend the rules as well to the point where others complained. For us it was weird, as we didn't realise we did something wrong. It's not because we're on the other side of the fence this time and because we feel the bending is much more severe that we can forget our own history.

BTW, shared victory is fine, if it is in the game. At least it will be visible in-game, and will have consequences in-game as well. If CIV has a well-balanced locked alliance victory type, I see no reason not to use it. But at least everyone plays with the same rules at that time, and everyone knows how the other plays.

DeepO

	05-06-2005 22:51									#71
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I can't get excited about weither they share a victory or not. Either way we lost, who or whom wins, is no concern to me.

They won, they did not prove they were better players.

	12-06-2005 23:12									#72
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And as Theseus, and Aeson before asked for restraint earlier, I ask for it now.

NYE, everypost but the last one was perfectly understandable, and thought provoking (or would be for me, if I had not already gone over them a thoasand times). Why did you have to post that last message? I agree with it wholeheartedly, but...

Hopefully we can nip this in the bud before it becomes another flame fest. And I am also beginning understand why so many people left during the bobian war...

	13-06-2005 08:56									#73
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I am sorry for causing you some discomfort, krill.

At the time of typing I was not thinking of the feelings of those other than the focus of my wrath. I broke my own rule of not posting late and angry.

Please carry on with whatever makes you happy from this game.

	13-06-2005 13:12									#74
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Thank you notyoueither

	13-06-2005 21:33									#75
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glad to see others also have rules for their own... my rule is that I can't allow myself to post in public when I'm drunk. Doesn't work, though, it's like forbidding yourself to phone ex-girlfriends while drunk, that also doesn't work. And the day after it's always painful

DeepO

	17-06-2005 20:53									#76
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OK allow another dump question, but is this game over for us? Did we get eliminated?

I have not been reading the public post, but just checked a bit and they are talking about a final save, so is it over?

	17-06-2005 20:58									#77
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Yes indeed, vmxa. GoW took EotS a couple of turns ago

DeepO

	17-06-2005 22:04									#78
	Remove this text

:cry:

	17-06-2005 23:44									#79
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Not sure how I missed it, but at least it is done. Those last few turns were depressing.

Thanks again for the great job DeepO and CH as well.