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Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 10-03-2005 04:11 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber


Ok . . . I may regret asking this but . . . so ?? Why does this matter??

I see both renting and working for others as acceptable alternatives . . Each involves less risks than than the other alternative and can have many benefits depending on a person's circumstance


Risk is only part of it. A lot of people want independence. They don't want a landlord or a boss.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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time: 22:35
  Old Post 10-03-2005 05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Risk is only part of it. A lot of people want independence. They don't want a landlord or a boss.


True -- and they don't HAVE to have either

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 10-03-2005 08:04 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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I do.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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  Old Post 10-03-2005 09:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
I do.


Why?? What PREVENTS you from starting your own business if that is really what you want to do?

I'm not saying you could necessarily do it immediately but you do have the ability to be self-employed if thats what you really want

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 10-03-2005 22:49 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Oh don't start that nonsense again.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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time: 22:35
  Old Post 10-03-2005 22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
Oh don't start that nonsense again.


In fairness, you are the one that brought your personal circumstance into the discussion by saying you must rent or you must work for someone else.


I just reject fatalism. I believe people can make a difference in their own lives.

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
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  Old Post 10-03-2005 23:31 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
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Though no individual person has to work as an employee, I doubt we would have a functioning society if nobody wanted to be an employee.

Homeownership on the other hand can be universal without side effects.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 10-03-2005 23:36
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i'm really not seeing how home ownership can be universal. There will always be people who make bad choices or who don't have the qualifications to get a high enough paying job to afford a home. Drug addicts who spend all of their money on drugs, the mentally retarded, and even just some lazy people won't ever save up the necissary capital.

The government can subsidize home loans to make them more affordable (as they do in the US) but then we'll hear more people claiming there is a housing bubble.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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  Old Post 10-03-2005 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Smiley
Though no individual person has to work as an employee, I doubt we would have a functioning society if nobody wanted to be an employee.

Homeownership on the other hand can be universal without side effects.



All true.

To go even further, I would doubt that all people would desire self -employment OR home ownership. I have been self-employed and did ok but I like the security of employment. Homeownership likewise, there are people that can financially afford to buy a home that do not .

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 11-03-2005 02:48 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber


In fairness, you are the one that brought your personal circumstance into the discussion by saying you must rent or you must work for someone else.


I just reject fatalism. I believe people can make a difference in their own lives.


You live in a silly world. People generally already make the best decisions for themselves and no one wants to work or rent for others all things being equal. No one would pay more to rent when buying is an option and no one would work for others when it's just as easy to work for youself for the same pay.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


No one would pay more to rent when buying is an option and no one would work for others when it's just as easy to work for youself for the same pay.


Wrong on renting -- I know lots of people who rent because they will be somewhere for a short time or because its a smaller place where selling can take a while. Those people are willing to pay a premium to rent since its not worth the hassle or bother to buy. I'm sure you could find a price point where buying was a LOT cheaper that might entice them to buy but otherwise they like the ease of renting for a while and moving on without a lot of bother.

ON jobs-- you assume that " its just as easy to work for yourself for the same pay"-- That assumption misunderstands what it means to work for oneself in the real ( and not the silly ) world . It is very rarely as secure and guaranteed as most wage jobs. If you work for yourself and your biggest client goes under, you may not get paid ANYTHING.

And Kidicious .. . I am always amused when you claim I am in the silly world. I give that comment all the note it is due.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 11-03-2005 03:02 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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No one wants to rent when all costs are considered and buying is just as cheap.

This conversation ends here. You are ridiculous.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


This conversation ends here. You are ridiculous.


Your argument is as reasoned as always

quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious

You are ridiculous.


Shucks and I thought we were becoming pals.



quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
No one wants to rent when all costs are considered and buying is just as cheap.



Wrong--

1.People have other factors they consider other than purely money. Convenience is one obvious one. Why would a person bother doing all the steps necessary to exercise due diligence to buy a house in a place they don't plan to stay. Renting is less work-- If you say otherwise you have never bought a house.

2. Risk of a loss is not a "cost" but it is real and some people don't want that risk. You couldn't ever entice me to buy in a small fishing community in Newfoundland. Why? The chance of resale is so low and empty homes abound.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 11-03-2005 03:20 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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...

Flubber is offline Flubber
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  Old Post 11-03-2005 03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
i'm really not seeing how home ownership can be universal.



I'll go further and say that it is unlikely you would find ALL people would want it to be universal. Some people like to be mobile and move a lot . . How fun would that be if you had to buy and sell a home each time?? How about seasonal workers, expats on foreign assignments, students ??

There will always be a market for rental properties and not just among those that can't afford to buy. There are rental properties in Calgary that go for 4000 a month . . . Does anyone think the people paying that rent couldn't buy a property if they really wanted to??

Flubber is offline Flubber
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  Old Post 11-03-2005 03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
...



best thing you have said yet



Kid what I so frequently reject in your comments is the absolutism of them. You keep saying that "Everyone" does x or y when it is patently obvious that "everyone" does NOT.

The second thing is the idea that money is always governing. I reject that unless you want to assign dollar values to many other factors that go into decision making ( even things that do not necessarily have economic consequences)

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:43 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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The forecasts for the California housing market aren't nearly as good as Oerdin claims. This was in the Fresno Bee .

quote:
Housing fuels state economy


Renowned UCLA forecast warns booming sector is 'unsustainable.'

By E.J. Schultz / The Fresno Bee

(Updated Tuesday, March 15, 2005, 6:00 AM)




The best-case scenario for California's economy the next two years is tepid growth, according to a forecast made public today.


The worst case: The housing bubble bursts, leading to a recession.

Hailed as an economic savior in recent years, the booming real-estate market "is clearly unsustainable," according to the UCLA Anderson Forecast, whose quarterly forecasts are among the most widely watched in the state.

And if other sectors do not pick up the slack, "look for another downturn in the state," the forecast predicts.



The rapid rise in home values has driven consumer spending and created an overwhelming percentage of new jobs in the state — no more so than in the central San Joaquin Valley, where houses are sprouting like spring wildflowers. But with the expected slowdown in housing, "that's all at risk," said Christopher Thornberg, a senior economist with UCLA Anderson Forecast. "It's a ticking time bomb."

Home price appreciation created more than $1 trillion in wealth in the state from 2001 to 2004, according to the forecast.

But because home values can fluctuate, some of it is paper wealth and can disappear if values rise more slowly or decline.

Thornberg compared it to collecting a check each month in your mailbox and "a few months later you find out that the check is fake."

According to the forecast, nonfarm jobs will grow by 1.5% in the state this year, up from last year's 1% growth, but in 2006, the growth will slow to 1.2%. "I think that 2005 is going to be a decent year, but 2006, I've got huge concerns about," Thornberg said.

The best case is that the economy grows slowly, according to the forecast. "On the other hand," Thornberg writes, "a sudden rise in interest rates or some other spark that could cause the housing sector bubble to implode at a faster rate could cause another recession, both in California and the United States."

Though Thornberg says he is not certain about how the different forces may play out, "what is clear is that the downside is far more likely than the upside."

The forecast is especially ominous for the central San Joaquin Valley, where the building boom has fueled some of the strongest job growth in the state.

Of the 3,900 net new nonfarm jobs created in Fresno County last year, for instance, 2,100 were created in construction, an amount 31/2 times greater than that added in manufacturing, according to state jobs data.

One local economic development official is not overly concerned.

"I would not expect to see an immediate downturn," said Fred Burkhardt, director of economic development for the city of Fresno. "I just would not expect to see it expanding as it has." If anything, he said, a slowdown in residential construction could be offset by growth in commercial building, which is showing no signs of letting up.

"It's good. It's solid. It's consistent," said Burkhardt, noting that his department is getting about six inquiries a week from developers looking to build commercial projects.

Another good sign is that industries such as technology and tourism are showing signs of life, according to the forecast.

Indeed, business spending may be the economic key in the next two years.

The 2001 downturn was led by job losses in the so-called external economy, which includes industries that sell goods to customers from outside the area — manufacturing, for instance, according to UCLA Anderson Forecast.

But, unusually, the job losses did not spill over into the "internal economy," which is driven by construction, retail, education and health care, the forecast notes.

The reason: Rising home values have given a jolt to consumer spending.

From 2001 to 2004, the value of California's 7 million homes has increased by about $175,000 per home, resulting in a total rise of more than $1.2 trillion according to UCLA Anderson Forecast.

Appreciation of apartments has added an additional $440 billion.

"To put this in context, the personal income for the state was $4.7 trillion over the same period of time," the forecast states. "Hence, Californians have been essentially given a 30%-plus boost to their annual incomes due to the housing bubble we are currently experiencing."

Meanwhile, of the 243,000 private payroll jobs added in the state in the past two years, 122,000 can be directly tied to the housing market, according to UCLA Anderson.

"In short, a sector of the economy that makes up 10% of total private sector jobs is accounting for 70% of the total job gains."



The appreciation in housing prices has been keeping the US economy alive at least as much as the tax cuts. I forecast a bubble burst followed by a recession. This time the cause is going to be falling consumer spending due to falling asset prices.

Flubber,

I make statements based on other things not changing. It's called ceterus parabus. You always bring up other things changing just to troll. And no I don't make universal statements. If I do I call them that. Stop trying to get me into your ridiculous arguments.

Flubber is offline Flubber
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time: 22:35
  Old Post 16-03-2005 03:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


You live in a silly world. People generally already make the best decisions for themselves and no one wants to work or rent for others all things being equal. No one would pay more to rent when buying is an option and no one would work for others when it's just as easy to work for youself for the same pay.



THis looks pretty universal to me. I take "no one" to mean zero people so it strikes me as a blanket statement . . an absolutism.

Oh and I don't troll. I just fundamentally disagree with about 90% of what you say .

Ming is offline Ming
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Enough with the "personal" stuff... stick to the topic.

 
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