18-03-2005 08:51									#391
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom A statement that makes hardly any sense. I'm unaware that my 'a-theism' is meant to be a counterpart to religion- you won't find ritual, holy books, deities, invisible beings, houses of worship, holy 'ground', fasting, special forms of attire, invocations, chants or songs. So if someone religious is looking for a counterpart to their religion, they won't find it in atheism, will they ? You will find a moral code, or a set of ethics that I expect to live by however. And so far, despite the absence of the threat of damnation (eternal or otherwise) or the sudden lightning bolt from the sky, I have yet to launch myself on a criminal career. Clearly I'm not doing this godlessness thing right.

But what determines what is right and wrong for you? And what keeps you from doing the wrong thing?

	18-03-2005 15:13									#392
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi But what determines what is right and wrong for you? And what keeps you from doing the wrong thing?

What makes people who have never met their god or experienced divine retribution from doing the wrong thing or from acting in the right way ?


For instance, I don't steal because mostly I have no need to, but partly because I wouldn't like people to steal from me, and partly because what would I steal and why ?

Reciprocity and respect are surely a great part of anyone's moral code. On the other hand I don't give to charity because I think I'm going to get something back though, I do it out of a mixture of a sense of obligation, sympathy, because I can spare the money, et cetera.


I haven't noticed any strict adherence to codes of morality amongst the god believers around the world, unless you're suggesting that all those prisons are full up of law abiding true believers, wrongly convicted.

	18-03-2005 15:15									#393
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi But what determines what is right and wrong for you? And what keeps you from doing the wrong thing?

Why oh why can christians and "godly" people be the only ones who can determine what is right and wrong? Why the hell does there have to be a god to determine between what is right and wrong? Hammurabi code for example is something I often bring up.. I have a copy of it.. draconian to say in the least, but nonetheless a secular set of rules more or less.

	18-03-2005 18:11									#394
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom What makes people who have never met their god or experienced divine retribution from doing the wrong thing or from acting in the right way ? For instance, I don't steal because mostly I have no need to, but partly because I wouldn't like people to steal from me, and partly because what would I steal and why ? Reciprocity and respect are surely a great part of anyone's moral code. On the other hand I don't give to charity because I think I'm going to get something back though, I do it out of a mixture of a sense of obligation, sympathy, because I can spare the money, et cetera. I haven't noticed any strict adherence to codes of morality amongst the god believers around the world, unless you're suggesting that all those prisons are full up of law abiding true believers, wrongly convicted.

I haven't mentioned religion yet. Besides, I don't believe that religion is necessary in order to have ethics or a moral code. Rather it is a something that allows people to make moral judgements just like you make your own based on a belief system. You don't steal under the assumption that if other people were to commit the same actions as you, you could be harmed. By stealing, you legitimize a social action that may adversely affect you. A religious person may not steal because they also feel such an action would also hurt them (hell, karma, and so on). Both are moral decisions based upon personal beliefs.

There seems to be an assumption in this thread that religious people are less moral because they are religious. Otherwise, what's the point of the current argument?

	19-03-2005 05:40									#395
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi There seems to be an assumption in this thread that religious people are less moral because they are religious. Otherwise, what's the point of the current argument?

Are you sure that you have read all postings or are you posting from a mirror universe ? There may have been some harsh comments, but they are based upon elok's claims that you can't be a moral/ethic person unless you belive in a god - and if I read elok correct then it's the christian god, otherwise you are just as lost as someone not beliving in gods.

	19-03-2005 06:26									#396
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Why oh why can christians and "godly" people be the only ones who can determine what is right and wrong? Why the hell does there have to be a god to determine between what is right and wrong? Hammurabi code for example is something I often bring up.. I have a copy of it.. draconian to say in the least, but nonetheless a secular set of rules more or less.

If You knew better, there's a reknown image of Hammurabi getting the laws from some god.

	19-03-2005 06:32									#397
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Here, I've found it for You. It's on top of the law text.

Fez gets pawned!

Attachment: hammurabi's%20code.jpg
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

	19-03-2005 06:34									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Fez gets pawned!

What a rare occasion!

	19-03-2005 06:34									#399
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Right
Fez's no real challenge.

	19-03-2005 07:03									#400
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Yeah, Fezgie is easy meat.

What really bothers me is that common people is as well. Without a blink they accept the most ludicrous things if it is stated that is given by god - for a couple of thousinds years ago, well, then it is understandable, but now ? People should know better.

	19-03-2005 09:56									#401
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Are you sure that you have read all postings or are you posting from a mirror universe ? There may have been some harsh comments, but they are based upon elok's claims that you can't be a moral/ethic person unless you belive in a god - and if I read elok correct then it's the christian god, otherwise you are just as lost as someone not beliving in gods.

I've already addressed that; they don't justify the comments. Sorry that I didn't gang up to attack him with the rest of you.

	19-03-2005 10:14									#402
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Crows not social animals??

Crows have been observed making tools and teaching tool-making to other crows.

In New Caledonia, there were observed distinct crow'fashions' depending on geographic origin, of crow tool-making.

	19-03-2005 10:40									#403
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I actually find the polytheism that many of those old civilizations had as more interesting. So many gods actually.

So you PWNed yourself.

	19-03-2005 10:59									#404
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi But what determines what is right and wrong for you? And what keeps you from doing the wrong thing?

We don't know and we don't know.

That doesn't mean a deity is behind ethics/morality.

	19-03-2005 11:00									#405
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson If You knew better, there's a reknown image of Hammurabi getting the laws from some god.

So? How does that prove anything?

	19-03-2005 11:03									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger We don't know and we don't know. That doesn't mean a deity is behind ethics/morality.

For the second time, I never made such a claim. I think the problem here is that certain posters only see what they want in other people's posts. That would explain a lot of the strange responses they give, especially when using the one-line method.

	19-03-2005 15:22									#407
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi There seems to be an assumption in this thread that religious people are less moral because they are religious. Otherwise, what's the point of the current argument?

I'd say that the assumption is the other way around- Elok seems to believe that a moral code is only any use if there's the threat of a supernatural being behind it.


I've never stated that people with a religious faith are inherently less moral because of that faith- in fact, some people I suspect find their faith a great help when faced with a moral quandary- Thomas More and Martin Luther King come to mind.

I don't belief in a supernatural being or damnation, but that doesn't mean that I have lapsed into a state of profound amorality.

Why do you behave as you do ? What enables you to distinguish right from wrong ?


Humankind may be of animal origin, but instead of instinctive responses we have the ability to reason, and to sympathize/empathize and to place ourselves in future outcomes based upon the consideration of what the consequences of our current behaviour might be.

	19-03-2005 21:40									#408
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I'd say that the assumption is the other way around- Elok seems to believe that a moral code is only any use if there's the threat of a supernatural being behind it.

Which leads us back to the age-old question for Elok:

Were it to be irrefutably shown that god(s) did not exist, which atrocity would you commit first?

	20-03-2005 10:10									#409
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I think the problem here is that certain posters only see what they want in other people's posts. That would explain a lot of the strange responses they give, especially when using the one-line method.

Interesting self-pwnage.