12-03-2005 23:30									#31
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Thankyou Imran. DanS, why don't you go and post about something you know a sh*t about, or is that beyond your scope?

	12-03-2005 23:33									#32
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The highest court in the UK remains the house of lords, right?

	12-03-2005 23:38									#33
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In some cases the highest court is the Law Lords (not the entire House of Lords, just those with legal training). In other cases the Privy Council is highest.

	12-03-2005 23:42									#34
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Well, that implies a less than complete separation of powers then, right?

(I know I'm flip-flopping sides in this discussion right now, but the UK is screwed up anyway - we probably ought to boot it out of the EU and pour concrete into the chunnel)

	12-03-2005 23:52									#35
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quote: DanS, why don't you go and post about something you know a sh*t about, or is that beyond your scope?

	12-03-2005 23:56									#36
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quote: Well, that implies a less than complete separation of powers then, right?

Not really. Since the House of Lords really have no legislative functions anymore (they can delay passage of a bill for a short period of time, but can't veto it).

	13-03-2005 00:03									#37
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Just one more peice of evidence that the UK needs a written constitution...

	13-03-2005 00:18									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Well, that implies a less than complete separation of powers then, right? Not really. Since the House of Lords really have no legislative functions anymore (they can delay passage of a bill for a short period of time, but can't veto it).

Their role may be diminished and complementary but they're still a legislative body that can amend bills and scrutinises the govt.

	13-03-2005 00:25									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Well, that implies a less than complete separation of powers then, right? (I know I'm flip-flopping sides in this discussion right now, but the UK is screwed up anyway - we probably ought to boot it out of the EU and pour concrete into the chunnel)

A belligerent Belgian - rather funny in its way.

	13-03-2005 01:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Confining people without due process is a violation of the Magna Carta. why is this a violation of due process, in any other way than arresting people for 24 hours?

I have to agree. This sounds almost like the same sort of situation. They still get their day in court and the only thing that's changed is the police can act upon the situation immediately if they need to.

	13-03-2005 01:36									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Terrorists don't hate our freedom. We hate our freedom.

	13-03-2005 01:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Just one more peice of evidence that the UK needs a written constitution...

IIRC most of it already *is* written and the stuff that isn't is so well entrenched through precedent it is for all practical purposes written anyway. Perhaps you are advocating they unify their constittuion to a single document? I'm not sure that would improve the protection of their rights.

	13-03-2005 01:51									#43
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quote: Their role may be diminished and complementary but they're still a legislative body that can amend bills and scrutinises the govt.

Ever heard of the Parliament act? If the house of Commons (ie the government) wants to, they can just force through whatever law they want. The House of Lords is more advisary than anything else ...

	13-03-2005 01:58									#44
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Which doesn't mean they aren't a legislative body...

	13-03-2005 02:09									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Since when did the Brits have any credible separation of powers?

Huh? They invented the idea.

There is no need for new laws on security or terrorism.

All that is happening is governments, police and security forces are using the whole terror industry to get powers they always dreamed of.

	13-03-2005 02:11									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui In some cases the highest court is the Law Lords (not the entire House of Lords, just those with legal training).

Sorry, that's misleading - it's not just those with 'legal training', or well over half the upper chamber would be Law Lords. There are in fact only nine Law Lords; usually five of them sit to hear a case, but in extraordinary circumstances all nine do.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The British legislation seems pretty balanced. It allows ministers to act immediately but requires them to go to a judge as soon as possible for minor things while the major stuff the judge still must approve ahead of time. It even includes a sunset clause.

(correction mine)
All those things you mentioned weren't actually in the original legislation, but were compromises forced out of the government by the Lords and the Opposition in the Commons. Originally judges weren't involved at all, and Clarke (the Home Secretary) was adamant that they shouldn't be.

To think that this bill could actually have been defeated in the Commons if all the damn Tories and Lib Dems had actually shown up. That would've been a sight to see - the first government legislation defeated on the floor since 1986.


And those who say the Lords is just an advisory body aren't quite right. While the Parliament Act does indeed provide for the Commons to force through any piece of legislation delayed by the Lords after a year, its invocation is still rare and often hotly contested. The Lords still carries some weight, and the government is often loath to ride roughshod over them.

	13-03-2005 02:15									#47
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Osama Bin Laden should get some sort of public service medal - he's certainly turned things around for bureaucracy - budgets are growing, staff increasing, powers increasing. We haven't had it this good since the Cold War.

	13-03-2005 02:21									#48
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quote: Huh? They invented the idea.

Isn't the Lord Chancellor both a member of the legislative and the head of the Judiciary?

	13-03-2005 02:26									#49
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Nope. Member of the Lords, yes, the Cabinet, yes, the Commons, no.

	13-03-2005 02:28									#50
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I DanS'ed you, Clear Skies.

	13-03-2005 02:28									#51
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Britain's problem is nothing to do with the power of parliament, and everything to do with the system that elects it.

It basically ensures a two party system, and when both parties care nothing for regular people protest votes do almost nothing (since people won't vote against Labour for fear of the Tories).

Britain needs proportional representation. That way you can have a variety of parties on the left and right and people have a realistic option if their usual party is screwing them about.

	13-03-2005 02:31									#52
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quote: Last edited by DanS on 12.03.05 at 21:27:40

I thought DanSing only applied if the "Last edited..." never occured...

	13-03-2005 02:32									#53
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The power of the DanS preceded the technology advance of no Last edited appearing.

	13-03-2005 02:39									#54
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The current Lord Chancellor has recused himself from the judiciary pending the abolition of the post, IIRC.

	13-03-2005 02:44									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Huh? They invented the idea.

Montesquieu was British?

	13-03-2005 03:11									#56
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the British Head of State is completely seperated from power...


the British chief Executive, therefore, felt he must go one better and act completely seperated from reality...

	13-03-2005 05:05									#57
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quote: Britain needs proportional representation. That way you can have a variety of parties on the left and right and people have a realistic option if their usual party is screwing them about.

Although its not entirely due to left and right. Its just that most British people's interests do not correpond to to their class (as used to be the case) so having two parties - one for each class - isnt representative enough. People define themselves by, or view their interests through, a variety of factors now - sexuality, region, whether they work in the private or public sector.
It used to be that working class voted Labour, middle class voted Conservative and upper class sat in the house of lords () - from the 60s onwards this broke down. The Conservatives became the party of the private sector and suddenly, middle class public sector workers had no one to vote for (thus, to some extent the SDP).

There are a millions and one social cleavages at work in Britain now - thats why we need PR.

quote: Montesquieu was British?

Yeah, and the American founding fathers invented democracy and Adam Smith invented Capitalism
Theory and practise are two different things.

	13-03-2005 05:24									#58
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A written constitution is just a wasted piece of paper in a nation where parliamentary sovereignty is still acknowledged.

	13-03-2005 05:30									#59
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I dont think that is necessarily so

	13-03-2005 05:39									#60
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Well, we could write everything down in on document but like Gerenimo said, everything is either written down somewhere or is so entrenched that writing it down is kinda pointless.

Besides, a written constitution wouldn't be binding in anyway similar to the way the American one is. Anything passed by the current parliament (including a constitution) could just be repealed or nullified by a future parliament.