14-03-2005 13:34									#61
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No, and no. What do I win?

SP

	14-03-2005 14:02									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's why the average user getting their Wintel boxed owned and got tons of malware.

Be honest. The reason most of the adware, spyware, malware is written for Windows is because most computers use Windows.

	14-03-2005 14:19									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If Linux comes pre-installed, it's just as easy to use. Can they install a majority of the software out there? Would they know to look for a "Linux" shelf (and it'd be only ONE shelf 99% of the time) for their software purchases?

software...pur..chases?

Any low level computer user will come running to the next level computer user to ask him to install the software for him (and a crack as well if it's not free). Not that he has heard of cracks, but he has heard that all software can be acquired free of charge.

The thing with linux is, would you really need more software than you already have on your distribution cd? IM client, compressing, mediaplayers,... it's all there already.

Ofc, if you have preferences in software it's different, but if you seek something that does the same, it's there. But ofc, again you have 100s of software that does virtually the same and they are all included and the illiterate computer user has to decide which of them is best for him based on a short textual description or such. This is a horror! There should only be ONE IM client, ONE mediaplayer,... and this should be supported heavily. The user could or advanced user could still install his favorite IM client.
KDE tried to do that, kind of, but their UI is so stupid. Single-left-click opens a folder for example
"We just try to be different!" I bet they did not do a single ui study on this. Just, everything that is possible, make it an option.

The problem is in the philosophy, because you have open source and people are for general openess and that also includes being open in the ways you can do something and being able to adjust about everything.
Normal people however don't want to play game with their OS and a reduction in options and a reasonable and well to use default setting are badly needed.

Another problem is that in open source the programmer is way too important. In reality the programmer is just the idiot who has to type it all in.

	14-03-2005 14:32									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If Linux comes pre-installed, it's just as easy to use. Can they install a majority of the software out there? Would they know to look for a "Linux" shelf (and it'd be only ONE shelf 99% of the time) for their software purchases?

1. Maybe, depends on the distro and the user. Then again, if you set up a Wintel XP box properly, users can't install software anyway in theory, because you'd limit their previleges.

2. It's called the Internet.

	14-03-2005 14:34									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Be honest. The reason most of the adware, spyware, malware is written for Windows is because most computers use Windows.

No, that's not the reason. The reason is Windows has more security holes than swiss cheese.

	14-03-2005 14:36									#66
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I assure you that if Mac had a market share worth jack cheese then every hacker would find every hole in OS X's security. Same goes for Linux if some one actually ever came out with a standardized version which had more then a niche market.

	14-03-2005 15:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa The thing with linux is, would you really need more software than you already have on your distribution cd? IM client, compressing, mediaplayers,... it's all there already.

Ignoring the fact that there's way too much on the distribution CD and half of it is crap, what happens when some ignorant user hears on the news that they need virus protection, and goes out and buys a copy of Norton Antivirus? Linux's vulnerability to viruses is irrelevant, what's relevant is that normal people, the people who open all the attachments they get, don't know that Windows software won't run on Linux. Until they spend $50 on a piece of software they can't use, get frustrated because they have to learn new things, take over the world, and kill everybody. Now humanity has been destroyed, and all because you want Linux installed on desktops. How does that make you feel, huh?

SP

	14-03-2005 15:58									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Fve Crathva Ignoring the fact that there's way too much on the distribution CD and half of it is crap

I suggest you read my whole post first.

quote: ...Until they spend $50 on a piece of software they can't use

Yeah come on and pull examples out of nowhere... Try to stay realistic, okay!
There is a System Requirements Box on every software box and if you don't know what system you're running, well then you have to learn it. It's a simple string and string comparison which should be well enough for everyone to handle.
If you want to say that users don't have to learn, you're contributing more to a downward spiral.

I always try to strike a balance, between what a user has to know and what not, but some things are essential.

Would you blame people that put non-drier-ready cloths in the drier, after they found out that their things got XS suddenly? And this is just one example.
Sorry, but using any device requires some knowledge which you have to learn, this is NOT unique to computers and I think it's pretty essential, otherwise tech support will further explode explaining the "any" key to users because education is considered bad in computer business.

quote: get frustrated because they have to learn new things, take over the world, and kill everybody. Now humanity has been destroyed, and all because you want Linux installed on desktops. How does that make you feel, huh?

destroying humanity because it has lost its ability to adapt. Only the stupid and inflexible shall survive, no?


0/10 for your trolls

	14-03-2005 19:48									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You quoted Eugenia to back yourself up? Maybe you would quote John Dvorak next.

Has it ever occured to you to debate something with content? All I ever hear from you is rhetoric and ad hominems.

If you don't like what the man has to say, why not take issues with the points he made?

	14-03-2005 19:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger 1. Maybe, depends on the distro and the user. Then again, if you set up a Wintel XP box properly, users can't install software anyway in theory, because you'd limit their previleges. 2. It's called the Internet.

You are the perfect example of the type of mindset that dominates the Linux development community, and the perfect example why Linux won't become a formidable force on the desktop until something changes. And you don't even realize it.

You're holding Linux back from widespread adoption, not helping it.

	14-03-2005 19:53									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No, that's not the reason. The reason is Windows has more security holes than swiss cheese.

1) You only need one to compromise the system
2) There are more holes known for the average Linux desktop suite than the average Windows one
3) The Linux kernel is a horribly-designed atrocity with way more security vulnerabilities than any other "modern" kernel
4) The vast majority of spyware, adware, and viruses get installed by either bundling with other products or "social engineering", something that will happen on any and all systems with a large enough demographic.

	14-03-2005 22:25									#72
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When you wake up in the morning, philosophically speaking, are you still you?

	14-03-2005 23:02									#73
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I think if somebody really wants to beat Microsoft is to do what Mozilla did with their software. They took a hard look at internet explorer, looked at all its flaws and built a much better version of it.
Do that with the windows OS and the geeks of the world would be able to compete with MS.

	14-03-2005 23:32									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp When you wake up in the morning, philosophically speaking, are you still you?

Not until the first coffee.

	15-03-2005 00:05									#75
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A new day and a new you.

	15-03-2005 01:11									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No, that's not the reason. The reason is Windows has more security holes than swiss cheese.

Bah...that's just BS, and you know it. Windows is neither more, nor is it less secure than any other OS on the market. It only has more users. A lot more. And that's why there is more malware written for Windows. Plus the fact that many people have got it in for MS, and would love nothing more than to bring them down.

Pfffttt.....listen to yourself.....


Asmodean

	15-03-2005 03:17									#77
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quote: Yeah come on and pull examples out of nowhere... Try to stay realistic, okay! There is a System Requirements Box on every software box and if you don't know what system you're running, well then you have to learn it. It's a simple string and string comparison which should be well enough for everyone to handle. If you want to say that users don't have to learn, you're contributing more to a downward spiral.

Do you seriously think that ignorant people actually read the system requirements and understand the difference between Linux and Windows? Even my mom, who has two geeks living with her, didn't know (or care) that her operating system is Windows for a long time. She just wants to use the damned computer, not spend her valuable time learning a whole new technology. Is that irresponsible? Sure. Is it realistic? Absolutely. As for examples, a little extrapolation on your part would do wonders for the efficiency of this conversation. Replace Norton Antivirus with label printing software, MS Office, any game on the shelf at Wal-Mart, hell, even the software that comes with the user's new printer. Nearly all consumer software assumes the customer uses Windows, and for good reason: the customer probably does.

quote: Sorry, but using any device requires some knowledge which you have to learn, this is NOT unique to computers and I think it's pretty essential, otherwise tech support will further explode explaining the "any" key to users because education is considered bad in computer business.

Knowledge like, say, knowing not to open unknown email attachments? To use a computer, all you need to know is the keyboard/mouse paradigm, and where to click and when to type. To use a computer competently, you need to know that there isn't an any key and that you can't install Windows programs on Linux.

quote: destroying humanity because it has lost its ability to adapt. Only the stupid and inflexible shall survive, no?

I'm glad that after several sentences, you finally noticed the tongue in my cheek.

SP