24-03-2005 04:51									#301
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If God had no contact with the universe, He may as well not exist.

I do not think complexity is possible without a creator.

Life is a test.

We need faith in order to act, and with perfect knowledge, there is no need for faith.

Parents require their children to trust them without understanding why.

Every being that can exist does exist.

Nonbelievers serve as tools of God to test believers.

If God is omnipotent, He has the power to solve any problem He creates.

One can easily, wholeheartedly, believe something empirically, falsely.

Everyone needs to be taught by a greater being.

I communicate, therefore I have a brain.

The meaning of the word "God" in the English language is shaped by monotheism.

God wishes for mortals to be instructed.

Belief leads to action.

God shows Himself directly to some, but not you or I.

It is impossible to do right without knowing what is right.

The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. The Law was made for man, and not man for the Law.

Faith precedes the miracle.

	24-03-2005 05:04									#302
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Write in paragraphs dammit, stop

pressing

enter

for

every

sentance!

quote: I do not think complexity is possible without a creator.

You are wrong on this one; it is. I do remember one particular chemiocal reaction that was completely spontaneous and was extrordinarily complex; there was no creator needed for that. (And don't pull the "but someone had to put them in the bottle together" crap)

quote: If God had no contact with the universe, He may as well not exist.

You finally got it! And he doesn't, or at least has very little contact as to consider it no contact.

quote: We need faith in order to act, and with perfect knowledge, there is no need for faith.

Yeah, if we had perfect knowledge, we'd be god. But we don't need faith; it's just humanity's crutch to instill hope in an unforgiving universe. It has its advantages, but its artificial.

quote: I communicate, therefore I have a brain.

If god is supposedly omnipotent, everywhere at the same time, he can't possibly have a central nervous system, much less a brain. Therefore he cannot communicate with us, and since he could not communicate with us, he doesn't exist, coinciding with your previous argument.

quote: The meaning of the word "God" in the English language is shaped by monotheism.

Well, that's because throughout the evolution of middle and modern english, the anglophones for the most part has been monotheistic.

quote: Faith precedes the miracle.

So an abstract concept of sentience existed before there was the quark-gluon plasma that was the preceddors of all matter 15 billion years ago? mmmkay.

quote: Parents require their children to trust them without understanding why.

That's probably the most untrue thing you have ever said. Children should learn to think for themselves and strive for knowledge on their own, not to trust their elders (much less their parents) on what is right. Dogma is only harmful for the progress of humanity.

quote: Every being that can exist does exist.

Considering the fact that humanity will most likely be able (And will) to create artifical life in the near future, your statement is most likely false.

	24-03-2005 05:04									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Brent If God had no contact with the universe, He may as well not exist.

agreed... in which case, it's pointless to worship him

quote: I do not think complexity is possible without a creator.

why? and if that's the case, who is God's creator? surely something as complex as God must have a creator.

quote: Life is a test.

possible... but no way to know

quote: We need faith in order to act,

the weak do

quote: and with perfect knowledge, there is no need for faith.

agreed

quote: Parents require their children to trust them without understanding why.

but behind every child's ignorance, there is a reason for parents' actions

quote: Every being that can exist does exist.

wha?

quote: Nonbelievers serve as tools of God to test believers.

not if we have free will

quote: If God is omnipotent, He has the power to solve any problem He creates.

ah ha! but then God does NOT have the power to create a problem he cannot solve... and hence, he is not omnipotent

quote: One can easily, wholeheartedly, believe something empirically, falsely.

true, but it is easier to believe something that is false, based on faith

quote: Everyone needs to be taught by a greater being.

then who taught God? who was God's creator?

quote: I communicate, therefore I have a brain.

eh... okay...

quote: The meaning of the word "God" in the English language is shaped by monotheism.

relevance?

quote: God wishes for mortals to be instructed.

then why doesn't he instruct us

quote: Belief leads to action.

true, illustrating the danger of belief... especially if it is false.

quote: God shows Himself directly to some, but not you or I.

and how do you know this? did God tell you?

quote: It is impossible to do right without knowing what is right.

actions are not predicated on knowledge... one can do right without knowing it is right... and one can do wrong without knowing it is wrong.

quote: The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. The Law was made for man, and not man for the Law.

I don't even know what the **** this is supposed to mean...

quote: Faith precedes the miracle.

sounds like a catch-22 to me... I can't have faith without the miracle, but according to you, you can't have the miracle without the faith. Convenient cop out if you ask me.

	24-03-2005 05:06									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson oh, not all the details. Just that in the karaite-samaritan-jewish-christian-muslim tradition, Christianity is the only acceptable. Well, and what has it to do with my claim that agnostic and atheist choice should be separated?

What do you mean by 'acceptable'?

I don't have any problem with separating the atheist and agnostic choices on the poll, I was debating your statements generalizing agnostics as doubting members of other religions, rather than having a wholly separate belief system(and I believe the second type are the ones much more likely to call themselves agnostic).

	24-03-2005 05:08									#305
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I sleep with God, therefore I need no religion I only pray.

	24-03-2005 05:12									#306
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quote: Originally posted by quantum_mechani What do you mean by 'acceptable'? I don't have any problem with separating the atheist and agnostic choices on the poll, I was debating your statements generalizing agnostics as doubting members of other religions, rather than having a wholly separate belief system(and I believe the second type are the ones much more likely to call themselves agnostic).

This is one of the main thing that really bugs me about religious types...

How is it they can believe in one religion exclusively over others - what gives these mere mortals the right to decide which religion is acceptable to them?

In many ways that makes them worse than atheists IMO, and also contributes to the preposterousness of organised religion due to the fact that there are so many...

	24-03-2005 05:13									#307
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Organized religion = teh suck. Unless you create your own.

	24-03-2005 05:17									#308
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"Join the First Church of MOBIUS!

Contribute 90% of your income and I will personally guarantee that your every wish will come true in the Afterlife...

P.S. I don't have a hell unless you are a masochist and you're into that sort of thing"

	24-03-2005 05:28									#309
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This has really degenerated into a nice bukakke fest.

	24-03-2005 05:32									#310
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"All the bukkake you want in the First Church of MOBIUS afterlife!"

	24-03-2005 05:33									#311
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS "All the bukkake you want in the First Church of MOBIUS afterlife!"

	24-03-2005 05:37									#312
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quote: How is it they can believe in one religion exclusively over others - what gives these mere mortals the right to decide which religion is acceptable to them?

Mobius - I assume then you plan to become B'Hai? Or Universalist.

	24-03-2005 05:42									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Which is why it is impossible for God to prove his omnipotence given the constraints of the universe. It doesn't make God any less real, it just illustrates the limitations of our own world.

impossible for an omnipotent god
You haven't understood a bit of what I was talking about.

	24-03-2005 05:42									#314
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God is not literally omnipresent. He has a body. God created man in His own image. The Lord spake unto Moses face to face. There is no beginning. There will be no end. Should a newborn need to think for itself completely? If man artificially creates true life, that life already has a spirit. Same with all life. God's actions have reasons. God's knowledge of what mortals will do does not mean it is not their choice. Everything you learn, you learn by the power of God. Correct belief leads to correct action. You will not be rewarded for accidentally doung what is right. You will not be punished for something you did not know was wrong.

	24-03-2005 05:44									#315
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Didn't know that the RCC had forum-bots..

	24-03-2005 05:49									#316
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A religion created by a mortal is by definition untrue.

	24-03-2005 05:51									#317
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Say that to the mormons and the scientologists....Brent.......

	24-03-2005 05:56									#318
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Or pretty much any monotheistic religion, including christianity and islam. Just because Jesus and Mohammad may have risen from the dead or something later on, doesn't make them less mortal when they were on earth. PWNed.

	24-03-2005 05:59									#319
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Actually Jesus didn't rise from the dead, his friends stole his body from that cave so he could be given a proper burial, idiots.

	24-03-2005 06:03									#320
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Does not scientology admit that it is created by a mortal? The true religion was not created during Jesus' mortality. It has always existed. It was revealed to Adam, Enoch, Noah, and Moses but always lost afterward. Truth is eternal.

	24-03-2005 06:07									#321
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Noah didn't exist. The ark is a fallacy.... but there was a big flood is Mesopotamia... eons ago.

	24-03-2005 06:17									#322
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Apparently a river burst it's banks or something and some bloke was on a boat, mayor of Shurruppak or something...and that is where the whole Noah's Ark thing comes from...

	24-03-2005 06:35									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Thorn Actually Jesus didn't rise from the dead, his friends stole his body from that cave so he could be given a proper burial, idiots.

1) Any proof? Video tapes?
2) What's with the guards?
3) What was wrong with his burial?
4) So apostles were liars and were dieing for their lies?

	24-03-2005 06:37									#324
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1) God told me so, I have faith in him, he wouldn't lie to me about this.
2) ?
3) It wasn't what he wanted.
4) Pretty Much.

	24-03-2005 06:38									#325
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um, last time I checked, Christanity is younger than Judaism, not older.

	24-03-2005 06:48									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Thorn 1) God told me so, I have faith in him, he wouldn't lie to me about this. 2) ? 3) It wasn't what he wanted. 4) Pretty Much.

Do You believe in God? No.
So if You've heard something, it couldn't have been God, otherwise You would've believed in Him.
So it must be your own mind playing tricks at You.
You're pathethic troll, Thorn.

quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 um, last time I checked, Christanity is younger than Judaism, not older.

In historical sense it's true, but Christianity and judaism are two parts of the same. They share the roots which are common for both, and as such, Christianity is as old as judaism. Both it and judaism changed over time.
Christianity has the same right to Old-testament prophets as judaism.

	24-03-2005 06:50									#327
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quote: In historical sense it's true, but Christianity and judaism are two parts of the same. They share the roots which are common for both, and as such, Christianity is as old as judaism. Both it and judaism changed over time. Christianity has the same right to Old-testament prophets as judaism.

That's like saying England should still own the United States.

Oh and yes I believe in God, I didn't up until the point we actually started having conversations.

	24-03-2005 07:04									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Thorn That's like saying England should still own the United States.

I guess you're unable to understand my point. Oh well.

quote: Oh and yes I believe in God, I didn't up until the point we actually started having conversations.

	24-03-2005 07:07									#329
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Well whatever I believe in him and he believes in me, you can choose your own relationship to God.

	24-03-2005 07:14									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Do You believe in God? No. So if You've heard something, it couldn't have been God, otherwise You would've believed in Him. So it must be your own mind playing tricks at You. You're pathethic troll, Thorn.

Thorn = EVC, so of course he's a troll.

quote: In historical sense it's true, but Christianity and judaism are two parts of the same. They share the roots which are common for both, and as such, Christianity is as old as judaism. Both it and judaism changed over time. Christianity has the same right to Old-testament prophets as judaism.

Judaism would differ tremendously. Also, one should realize that in christianity the old testament is less important than the new testament. (With the exception of religious fanatics who tries to excuse hate ) Also, there's the entire fact that when it comes to the prophecy, Jesus didn't fill the requirements to be the Messiah, so they really arn't the same religions. And philosophically they can be quite different despite people putting labels such as "Judeo-Christianity"; just because they co-existed doesn't mean that they are very similiar.