22-03-2005 01:49									#151
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Nitpicking.
Liberals.

	22-03-2005 01:57									#152
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quote: And for people who do believe in something, especialy many from the organised religions; i guess its hard to explain why there is so much suffering in the world. And often the suffering of clearly good and innocent people, while obvious evil-doers seem to be geting away with it. So thats what never made me a follower of any of the organised religions - their stories of merciful gods and being good being the way, just doesn't seem to coralate with what we actualy see in the world all around us.

Ahhh, the problem of evil...

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

quote: Thus if, for simplicity, we focus on a conception of God as all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good, one very concise way of formulating such an argument is as follows: 1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. 2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil. 3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists. 4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil. 5. Evil exists. 6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil. 7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

	22-03-2005 02:05									#153
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I think that's a poor argument because it leaves out any notion of free will. Maybe God has made a commitment to not interfering with humanity's free will.

	22-03-2005 02:07									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think that's a poor argument because it leaves out any notion of free will. Maybe God has made a commitment to not interfering with humanity's free will.

Exactly.

	22-03-2005 02:10									#155
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But then God is Deistic, not Theistic. A lot of people are going to be very upset with that idea.

	22-03-2005 02:14									#156
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That isn't necessarily true. G-d may not want to interfere with free will, but why does that prevent Him from doing miracles or answering prayers?

	22-03-2005 02:23									#157
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quote: I think that's a poor argument because it leaves out any notion of free will. Maybe God has made a commitment to not interfering with humanity's free will.

Good point. But what to make of natural disasters, like the recent Tsunami? What I gave you is just the basic outline of the argument. It gets more complicated than that.

	22-03-2005 02:28									#158
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Disasters are amoral.

Who knows, maybe God has a "prime directive" of sorts where he doesn't interfere with events in human existence.

Don't get me wrong, I lean more towards atheism then I do theism. But I'm just pointing out weaknesses in your arguments.

	22-03-2005 02:28									#159
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quote: But then God is Deistic, not Theistic. A lot of people are going to be very upset with that idea.

Good point. I didn't know the difference between deistic and theistic. Here's what I found:

quote: Deistic and theistic (...) describe the relationship between a god and that which it creates. A deistic god is one that would distance itself from that which it creates, one the would not get involved in the activities of the things it created. A deistic god would essentially be an "absentee father" god -- it would create a universe and then sit back and says "I made you, but I don't want to get involved. You're on your own!" The God of the Bible is theistic. He does not distance Himself from that which He creates. He gets actively involved in the activities of the things He created. In fact, the God of the Bible 'micromanages' things.

I believe that if we continue like this, confronting our concept of God with known facts, most people will come to the conclusion that they don't really care whether God exists or not, like they don't really care whether there are blackholes or not. Whether blackholes exist or not is an interesting scientific question, but whether they exist or not doesn't make a difference in your life, unless you study them of course

	22-03-2005 02:36									#160
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Interesting link nostromo

but ref: 1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

I think that could be the flaw in that particular arguement.

Who knows what alignment 'God' will have? Only human desires to have a moral god creates that scenario(and different people/cultures have different morals).

Isn't it often always the human element that's involved in most organised religion that creates most of the anti-god proof that aethisits come up with?

After all in our advanced modern world surely we should be able to find holes in stuff that was written by our less knowledgable ancestors thousands of years ago or longer?

So i dont think the existence of 'evil' in the world is really a proper arguement against the existence of a 'god' or 'gods', although i can see why it might shake some people's faith.

The appeal of the norse gods for me is the fact that they dont take a moral high ground, they each have their flaws(like we do) and if they were responsible for the creation of man(they have their own creation myth as most religions do), that would make sense that we would be made with flaws also, and able to do 'evil'.

This in part is why i became a child of Thor - i liked the 'realism', and the literature is much more fun than the bible to read

Still i dont think it matters what you believe in - just believe in something that has the ability to make a better world for those that follow us and try to be tolerant of others with a different view.

If that differing view leads to less good in the world then maybe try to gently win them around to see the problem with it?

Last edited by child of Thor on 22-03-2005 at 02:41

	22-03-2005 02:37									#161
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quote: But then God is Deistic, not Theistic. A lot of people are going to be very upset with that idea.

Absolutely, well observed. And I'm so sorry about what's happened . I think I understand now where you're coming from with regards to deism, I know I said deism = theism earlier but that's not the full picture. (theism |= deism).

I suppose in that respect I'm a fideist (arguments pro God are irrelevant to faith), since it's a very human thing.

If God exists, and engineers/allows such evils to occur in our lives, perhaps we should consider that God is the enemy of humanity, indeed there is not a single word of praise in the bible for intelligence or human endeavour, and God is represented as history's biggest serial killer. God loves us. Hitler loves us.

	22-03-2005 02:58									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Nitpicking. Liberals.

Chabad dinners with kugel
Camp gan
reading the Tanya
reading the tanya instead of say, the Talmud
Or instead of a standard Kabbalistic text
Or instead of a standard Chassidic text
Actually believing the rebbe is moshiach
Putting up a picture of the rebbe on the eastern wall of a room where you daven
Appreciating what the rebbe did for lost souls
trying do something for lost souls ourselves
appreciating what all of judaism has to offer

you think liberals are down on Chabad??? you should see what some mainstream O jews say. Liberal Jews at least dont consider Chabad heretics

	22-03-2005 03:05									#163
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quote: you think liberals are down on Chabad??? you should see what some mainstream O jews say. Liberal Jews at least dont consider Chabad heretics

Liberal jews would only consider someone who posted leaflets arguing against God, Zionism and non-intermarriage, caused three Chedar teachers to leave and screwed a girl in a storage cupboard in the Synagogue to be a heretic. Fortunately, I'd accomplished all of these by the age of 16 and was duly dismissed, thus saving me an hours road trip every weekend .

	22-03-2005 04:23									#164
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God does not have the power to do anything ungodlike. God does not have the power to control people. The Devil wanted to control people. There must be opposition in all things. You can never know the good if you've never known the bad. People can have more influence on each other than God has on them. God wants people to find Him for themselves. The God of the Bible does not control people. Where it says God hardens someone's heart, it is a mistranslation that should say that person hardens his or her own heart. God does not engineer evil, but He does allow evil. The Devil engineers evil and is the enemy of humanity.

	22-03-2005 04:28									#165
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Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

I kind of think the opposite is true: man created god in his own image.

	22-03-2005 04:37									#166
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yeah, wouldnt we be in for a shock if god was just essence?

	22-03-2005 04:40									#167
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I think we're all going to be in for a shock, no matter what. Only MtG will die and go, "Yup, this is exactly how I imagined it."

	22-03-2005 04:41									#168
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MtG probably wont die.

	22-03-2005 04:44									#169
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Aww, people will percieve the afterlife however they believed it would be at first. Not sure about those who don't believe there is one, though.

	22-03-2005 05:10									#170
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Chabad dinners with kugel Camp gan reading the Tanya reading the tanya instead of say, the Talmud Or instead of a standard Kabbalistic text Or instead of a standard Chassidic text Actually believing the rebbe is moshiach Putting up a picture of the rebbe on the eastern wall of a room where you daven Appreciating what the rebbe did for lost souls trying do something for lost souls ourselves appreciating what all of judaism has to offer you think liberals are down on Chabad??? you should see what some mainstream O jews say. Liberal Jews at least dont consider Chabad heretics

Actually, I totally agree with all of your statements.

	22-03-2005 05:10									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Liberal jews would only consider someone who posted leaflets arguing against God, Zionism and non-intermarriage, caused three Chedar teachers to leave and screwed a girl in a storage cupboard in the Synagogue to be a heretic. Fortunately, I'd accomplished all of these by the age of 16 and was duly dismissed, thus saving me an hours road trip every weekend .

This really isn't anything to be proud of.

	22-03-2005 05:14									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Liberal jews would only consider someone who posted leaflets arguing against God, Zionism and non-intermarriage, caused three Chedar teachers to leave and screwed a girl in a storage cupboard in the Synagogue to be a heretic. Fortunately, I'd accomplished all of these by the age of 16 and was duly dismissed, thus saving me an hours road trip every weekend .

	22-03-2005 06:13									#173
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You rang?

	22-03-2005 06:15									#174
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its about time BK made an appearance

	22-03-2005 06:21									#175
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quote: 1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. 2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil. 3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists. 4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil. 5. Evil exists. 6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil. 7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

1. True. I won't challenge that.

2. Also true, if God is omnipotent, then he can eliminate all evil should he choose to do so.

3. Also true. We are told that sin grieves God.

4. True If God is morally perfect then he has the desire to eliminate evil.

The problem with eliminating evil altogether, means he must also kill all sinful human beings. So it is not true that even though God wants to eliminate all evil, that he must do so now.

If he loves us, then his love for us must counterbalance his desire to eliminate evil for a time.

5. Also true

6. Nope. God can refrain from acting to eliminate evil now, while planning to eliminate evil later without coming to a contradiction in terms.

	22-03-2005 06:22									#176
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Busy with my mom for the weekend. She went to church with me for the first time since I was small.

A Catholic church no less.

	22-03-2005 06:32									#177
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quote: In that sense evangelical christianity and militant secularism are two sides of the same coin to me - they think religion is a set of doctrines, something you can prove or disprove in an argument - even in a poly thread.

I would rather, ask you to look at what evangelical protestants say, rather than what others say about them.

Evangelisation is more about an invitation rather than boiling down all of what faith is to a set of doctrines. You are calling to the knowledge that the person already has about God, rather than thrusting all the teachings of the church down someone's throat.

	22-03-2005 06:38									#178
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quote: You are calling to the knowledge that the person already has about God, rather than thrusting all the teachings of the church down someone's throat.

one in the same!

	22-03-2005 06:43									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 1. True. I won't challenge that. 2. Also true, if God is omnipotent, then he can eliminate all evil should he choose to do so. 3. Also true. We are told that sin grieves God. 4. True If God is morally perfect then he has the desire to eliminate evil. The problem with eliminating evil altogether, means he must also kill all sinful human beings. So it is not true that even though God wants to eliminate all evil, that he must do so now. If he loves us, then his love for us must counterbalance his desire to eliminate evil for a time. 5. Also true 6. Nope. God can refrain from acting to eliminate evil now, while planning to eliminate evil later without coming to a contradiction in terms.

Here's a little thought for you Ben Kenobi - if God is all powerful, is he powerful enough to tie a knot so tight that he himself cannot untie. If that is the case he is not omnipotent, and if it is not the case, the same applies...so what do you say to omnipotence being paradoxical?

	22-03-2005 07:03									#180
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quote: God does not have the power to do anything ungodlike.

Like humans for instance?

quote: God wants people to find Him for themselves.

What if I find a God that doesn't want to be found? That is, after all, the conclusion of any god who cannot cause the ungodlike, causing a knowability paradox.

quote: God does not engineer evil, but He does allow evil

But isn't God supposed to be omnipotent? Allowing things one cannot control is a measure of finite power, if one is omnipotent then to allow something to happen is to will it to happen no?

quote: yeah, wouldnt we be in for a shock if god was just essence?

Existence precedes essence, so I'll spare you the ontological argument .

quote: This really isn't anything to be proud of.

I guess I was just too liberal

quote: The problem with eliminating evil altogether, means he must also kill all sinful human beings. So it is not true that even though God wants to eliminate all evil, that he must do so now.

But according to your church, where evil exists within humans, the human is salvagable into a good person no? Unless God seeks retribution that is, as opposed to the elimination of evil. Is that after all not the point of the drive to save souls, and the Church's insistence that accepting Jesus and renouncing sin renders you a Good Person (TM)? For your argument to hold, "evil doers" would need to be essentially evil.

quote: Nope. God can refrain from acting to eliminate evil now, while planning to eliminate evil later without coming to a contradiction in terms.

But isn't evil supposed to be self-contained, in quanta of sins, as opposed to some cosmological construction. Would God not be able to act to prevent human sin, while allowing the lord god pu... i mean satan to exist. Or does God see things in terms of necessary evil, so that in the long term, evil isn't really evil, so the stuff about redemption and salvation is basically crap... an evangelical play on someones guilt?

quote: Evangelisation is more about an invitation rather than boiling down all of what faith is to a set of doctrines. You are calling to the knowledge that the person already has about God, rather than thrusting all the teachings of the church down someone's throat.

That's more marketing than anything, the intention is to get people to subscribe to that philosophy is it not? The basic evangelist sales pitch is to describe Christ as a historical figure, an ethical philosopher or perhaps some metropolitan "lifestyle guru", and then show the "urgent need" for Christ in the world, using what the victim knows of God to ascribe itself to God and Christ, and out the window goes the doubt, the inquiry and the logic that one would normally expect to accompany a philosopher, a historical figure.