24-03-2005 02:59									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Then we should be sceptical instead of blindly assuming things like you do.

There is a threshold where being skeptical of obvious things makes you insane, or at least holding an absurd position while encased in a reality distortion field of some sort.

quote: It's hard to get software to install itself on OS X in a way that would compromise a machine without root access (a password) or physical access to the machine (that's why the only bad stuff so far has been a trojan that must be manually installed).

Why do viruses need to install software? I don't get it.

Do you need to be root or Administrator to delete your own user files? Probably the most important data on the system, actually...

quote: Because "capable" is a vague term.

Only when you want it to be, and only when you're deliberately being obtuse.

Viruses rely on ignorant people, ignorant people are on every platform.

quote: If we followed your logic it would be the case that Windows is only a swiss cheese operating system because of its popularity rather than its bad design or the lack of incentives to fix it properly.

1) Why is Windows a "swiss cheese operating system" if there have been more security fixes release for MacOS X and standard Linux desktop configuratoins this year?
2) Why is the design bad (coming from your obviously informed perspective of an artsy philosopher)
3) Why is there a lack of incentive to fix it properly?

quote: But in the end it doesn't matter. In practical terms OS X is still more secure than Windows - for whatever reason.

In practical terms, OS X is less capable than Windows. There is less good software, there is less bad software, and there are less users.

A user with any kind of half-decent intellect gets the same amount of viruses on either platform, so in practical terms, one still holds a huge advantage over the other.

	24-03-2005 03:05									#62
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In other words, you are still relying on the same argument without any further evidence.



Wake me up when you have some real evidence.

	24-03-2005 03:11									#63
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I have no evidence, I have nothing !!

	24-03-2005 22:06									#64
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I like your sig Agathon

	30-03-2005 00:33									#65
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More industry experts agreeing with Asher

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5644762.html

quote: Gartner: Beware of Mac OS spyware By Munir Kotadia, ZDNet Australia Published on ZDNet News: March 29, 2005, 4:53 AM PT Just a week after Symantec caused uproar in the Mac community by warning the OS X operating system was quickly becoming a target for hackers and viruses, Gartner has warned businesses reliant on the Mac to guard against "spyware infestations." Martin Reynolds, vice president of Gartner's Dataquest organization, said last week although the overall Mac user base is relatively small, just one vulnerability exploit could cause trouble. "The Macintosh installed base is relatively small, with only about three percent of systems in use today running the Mac OS… The Mac OS is also a harder target… However, it only takes one exploited weakness to cause trouble," said Reynolds in a research note. He added that a Mac-only worm would be unlikely to spread very quickly but it might be possible to create a hybrid worm that attacks both the Mac and Microsoft Windows operating systems. "If an infected Macintosh attempts to spread a worm, it will reach a system resistant to that infection 97 percent of the time. A hybrid worm targeting both the Mac OS and Microsoft Windows could be developed, but such an attack would be difficult to orchestrate," said Reynolds. He was also concerned that spyware targeting the Mac OS could establish itself before its existence was widely documented. "Although it is almost nonexistent on the Mac platform today, problem spyware could emerge. Spyware that exploits vulnerabilities can establish itself more deeply in the system, becoming both harder to detect and harder to remove. Don't assume that your Macintosh systems are immune from viruses and other malicious-code attacks," said Reynolds.

	30-03-2005 02:15									#66
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Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Myth:

quote: It's a psychological question more than anything else. People who write viruses are out for fame or have an appetite for destruction, neither of which lend themselves to tiny marketshares...

The FBI and numerous security groups have noticed that increasing (I did not say ALL) amounts of malware being written out there is for organized crime, with some spam thown in for giggles (since that seems to be the thread de jure word here). That has nothing to do with fame or destruction. It is a hard cost benefit analysis. How many machines deployed with that code, how easy is it to exploit afore-mentioned code, and what are the benefits incurred for exploiting it?

At this point those factors favor Microsoft products (as in from the cybercriminals viewpoint), so when it comes to cybercrime, running a Microsoft product makes you more likely to be a victim. It like driving a Hyandai sedan versus a Taurus. The Hyandai is not going to have that much value in the chop shop relative to other high-end seadans worth substantial amounts more, nor is it going to have the ease of selling the parts that the owner of a Ford Taurus sedan would have.

I expect to see Linux hacked more due to Apache Server and the various similiar applications out there. However, Linux products have an intrinsic advantage that Asher does not address, namely that they are less user friendly than MS products. Huh?

Because they are less user friendly, you need to have a relatively more skilled (read geeky) IT staff for Linux deployment versus Windows et al. Thus you are more likely to get patches done properly, systems secured, etc. Add in the fact cybercriminals (I don't give a f**k about cybervandals, they are just obnoxious), especially the pros, are quite familiar with this. Again, you end up with MS products being de facto less secure.

Plus MS products have a tendency to share code, and if I can get in an convince and everyday user on the network using Windows XP to open that wrong piece of email, or to surf to my website with Java/Active X permissions enabled, then I am more likely to successfully penetrate an all MS environment.

So while the popularity (and where it is used) of a OS does not at all affect the security of it's code, it has a massive practical effect on the OS's overall security. It all depends on how you ask the question.

	30-03-2005 02:18									#67
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quote: Plus MS products have a tendency to share code, and if I can get in an convince and everyday user on the network using Windows XP to open that wrong piece of email, or to surf to my website with Java/Active X permissions enabled, then I am more likely to successfully penetrate an all MS environment.

1) This is considered good design and software practice
2) It's something Linux does, and should do a lot more, and is precisely why it's dependency hell

I have major problems with declaring one product "less secure" than the others due to intangible things such as popularity and targetability for cybercriminals.

I consider the security of the product to be something more tangible, such as number of exploits for a standard desktop suite.

I consider the frequency of attacks to be something related, but different. A Hyundai without a "Club" is less secure than a Civic with one, but the Hyundai is still less likely to be stolen.

	30-03-2005 03:12									#68
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Asher, we are talking apples and oranges here. You are talking essentially code security. My programming experience was on mainframes or on Microcomputers prior to the internet (I do not consider doing database or spreadsheet work "programming" per se).

I am talking about systemic issues. They are extremely tangible, but less straightforward. The military deals with those issues all the time, and because they are less straightforward also gets them wrong more often. That does not make the less straightforward (note I am not using the term tangible, these issues are just as real) issues less important, in fact once you deal with the straightforward issues, ALL improvements come from the systemic ones.

One of the first issues in dealing with those less straightforward issues is exactly that - how do you develop metrics, i.e. how to you measure it. One of the best examples from the military is measuring the results of asymmetric warfare (i.e. insurgencies) with body counts. That metric does not work.

I will stand by my statement made before - systemic issues make a Microsoft Product environment more susceptible to the attention of cyber criminals. I did not say better, nor did I say worse. If you deployed that many Linux Desktops and servers would they be more susceptible? Gibberish question, this kind of answer is based on the current environment.

Your comment about the Hyandai without the club is exactly on point. To take the analogy further, the BMW sedan with delayed ignition cut-out, keyless encrypted entry, GPS monitoring, and alarms in a gated parking garage is tremendously less likely to be stolen, and also more secure.

However, park it in the wrong area, and thieves may toe it away using a flatbed truck, while yanking the battery to disable the GPS tracker. Or they may have an inside man at the dealership with some of the override codes. This is analogous to some of the banking systems - tremendously more secure, but worth the while of real pros to get at. And the fact an insider can undo however much hardening you have done to the system.

So now in addition to code you have background checks for both criminal and credit ratings. The latter is a new systemic check, and sadly works because a person without credit problems is less likely to get into the kind of problems that tempt them to help penetrate the network. That is very unfair to the person who has bad credit due to their child's leukemia, but the metric is provable, bad credit = increased risk. That is why laws are passed preventing that kind of use/abuse of data like that.

	30-03-2005 03:33									#69
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Yes, I am talking code security. That was the point of this thread.

If you don't know what you're doing, you're far less likely to get a virus on the Mac today than you are on Windows.

If you know what you're doing, you're just as likely to get a virus on either Mac or Windows -- pretty much nil.

If you don't know what you're doing and don't take any precautions (like most Mac users), you are at more risk for a virus than users who don't know what they're doing and take precautions on Windows.

If MacOS gets more popular, it will increasingly become a target for attacks and viruses -- whether by geek who want fame, spammers/malware that want money, or cybercriminals. This is my point.

All platforms have security vulnerabilities, the Mac ones just aren't being exploited en masse.

	30-03-2005 05:28									#70
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Only partially correct - because what you call good programming, i.e. code reuse is only good if you can guarantee the code you are reusing has no vulnerabilities, i.e. is fully debugged. I will submit that the second qualification, and I do include security vulnerabilities as "fully debugged" is more often ignored as long as the reused code, i.e. module, does the job.

The problem with security is similar to that for pharma. A true cure produces less money then on ongoing treatment. Plus reengineering flawed products on the market, at increased expense, has no constituency per se. You made a comment, I guess about a year ago, sarcastically commenting about security on the old mainframe systems (something I am familiar with, though by no means an expert). You made comments about priviledges, etc. and said who would want that?

Exactly. From a pure security standpoint, many of the web interactions we have today would not exist, plus desktops would be a much more obnoxious environment for the casual user. Until this reengineering is done (Linux is an OS for geeks, who are not going to abandon their "project" to rewrite it properly from the security standpoint) even smart users will get nailed with malware.

Mac OS X, being based of a UNIX, is probably more secure than Windows due to a variety of reasons, including a series of very bad policy decisions reference security that were made by Microsoft, decisions which were excellent business decisions. Trying to fix an inherently insecure system, especially with the tight integration of many components (i.e. Outlook, IE, and VB for just a few examples) have that increases vulnerability, is going to be a Sisyphean task.

Also, Mac OS X will never get the penetration of the server and back-end market, and thus will never provide the tempting target for cybercriminals. Thus, I suspect I can safely say, unless there is a massive change in the market, i.e. the EU breaks up Microsoft or some such silly scenario, any Windows Box will be more, probably substantially more, likely to be hacked than an Mac OS X box.

Your simply talking code security is like the Marine Corps still talking body counts, even today in Iraq. You are repeating a fact, and it is one that you believe. It however is moot. Body counts mean very little in defeating an insurgency. Code security, unless you are talking total security, which most end users have negative interest in due to the inconvenience, is only a very small picture of the actual security situation faced in the real world. Using an MS product is the most likely way to get your machine compromised, all other things being equal. That fact is inescapable, just like talking about code security will do virtually nothing to change the current state of affairs.

	30-03-2005 06:44									#71
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Only partially correct - because what you call good programming, i.e. code reuse is only good if you can guarantee the code you are reusing has no vulnerabilities, i.e. is fully debugged.

But there's another aspect to that -- all programs will have vulnerabilities. The more time code is reused, the more likely it will go through some kind of code review, and the more often it will be tested for vulnerabilities. By reusing code you are restricting the amount of new, unique code that could have vulnerabilities.

quote: Mac OS X, being based of a UNIX, is probably more secure than Windows due to a variety of reasons, including a series of very bad policy decisions reference security that were made by Microsoft, decisions which were excellent business decisions.

I'm going to disagree with your UNIX rationalization -- what does this have to do with using the Mach microkernel? The Windows NT kernel hasn't had a vulnerability in many years either.

quote: Trying to fix an inherently insecure system, especially with the tight integration of many components (i.e. Outlook, IE, and VB for just a few examples) have that increases vulnerability, is going to be a Sisyphean task. Also, Mac OS X will never get the penetration of the server and back-end market, and thus will never provide the tempting target for cybercriminals. Thus, I suspect I can safely say, unless there is a massive change in the market, i.e. the EU breaks up Microsoft or some such silly scenario, any Windows Box will be more, probably substantially more, likely to be hacked than an Mac OS X box.

Windows isn't inherently insecure, it's just that much of what's used today was designed well before the internet proliferated. Apple got lucky in that they had a major overhaul of their OS at the same time of the dot-com boom, while MS' major overhaul is still in the future. They could do a lot of smart changes that would force users to learn new habits, etc...such as running in a restricted userlevel by default. These changes for MS are coming in Longhorn, MS' major overhaul.

quote: Using an MS product is the most likely way to get your machine compromised, all other things being equal. That fact is inescapable, just like talking about code security will do virtually nothing to change the current state of affairs.

I'm not arguing that at all -- my point was MS is the main target because of its market penetration.

A secondary point is if you properly configure your Windows box, you don't run into these problems either.

My boxes, nor my family's boxes that I've set up, have had viruses. Even with my know-nothing mother.

Windows XP is just as secure by design as MacOS X does, if you make it that way. It's not that way by default (it's getting there, with the firewall) because it'll annoy many users who will instantly just revert back...

	30-03-2005 13:09									#72
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Another research report that finds Windows to be more secure than Linux turns out to be funded by Microsoft.

quote: Two researchers surprised the audience at a computer-security convention last month with their finding that a version of Microsoft Windows was more secure than a competing Linux operating system. This week, the researchers released their finished report, and it included another surprise: Microsoft was funding the project all along. The researchers, from the Florida Institute of Technology and Boston-based Security Innovation Inc., defend their process and conclusions as valid. They say they had "complete editorial control over all research and analysis" involved in the project. Their report details their methods, and they invite other experts to examine and duplicate their work. But their disclosure of the project's funding source this week is stirring new debate over what had otherwise been viewed as encouraging news for Microsoft in an area in which it has struggled. The researchers had made the presentation at last month's RSA Conference, which attracts some of the biggest names in the computer-security business. "It was evidence that Microsoft was doing better, and now the evidence is tainted," said Counterpane Internet Security founder Bruce Schneier, a longtime RSA Conference speaker. "The results might be accurate, but now nobody's going to care, because all they'll see is a bias that was undisclosed.

link

It's like all those "independent" studies that were found to be funded by Microsoft later.

	30-03-2005 13:18									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The Windows NT kernel hasn't had a vulnerability in many years either.

The problem is nobody knows exactly what the Windows kernel is, outside of Redmond.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Windows isn't inherently insecure, it's just that much of what's used today was designed well before the internet proliferated.

Not so. Bruce Schneier said something about why Windows is inherently insecure.

quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm not arguing that at all -- my point was MS is the main target because of its market penetration.

Um, making it easy for unknown executables to run and have access to system services is a big reason for it.

quote: Originally posted by Asher A secondary point is if you properly configure your Windows box, you don't run into these problems either.

Joe User doesn't even know he needs to configure a Wintel box that he just got from Dell.

	30-03-2005 13:43									#74
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This is hilarious. Asher still believes this, even though he has not one shred of evidence for it.

	30-03-2005 21:09									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The problem is nobody knows exactly what the Windows kernel is, outside of Redmond.

Are you kidding?

The architecture is both public and well-documented, as well as being in many OS design textbooks this day and age. It's a shame you're too old to know what you're talking about here.

quote: Not so. Bruce Schneier said something about why Windows is inherently insecure.

You mean that article you linked to earlier that was shot down because it didn't mention anything about Windows being "fundamentally" or "inherently" insecure?

quote: This is hilarious. Asher still believes this, even though he has not one shred of evidence for it.

1. You sound like Fez.
2. I'm pretty sure these security analysts, academics, and even someone such as myself understand computer security far more than you ever will. Whether you don't believe it is kinda moot, it's like me saying Plato was a black man and unless you show me a color photograph of him I'm not going to believe you.

	30-03-2005 21:41									#76
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quote: Windows isn't inherently insecure, it's just that much of what's used today was designed well before the internet proliferated. Apple got lucky in that they had a major overhaul of their OS at the same time of the dot-com boom, while MS' major overhaul is still in the future. They could do a lot of smart changes that would force users to learn new habits, etc...such as running in a restricted userlevel by default. These changes for MS are coming in Longhorn, MS' major overhaul.

Fallacy. Asher, if that is important, then the date of design makes no difference. That is why some of the old banking systems are so f**king secure - they were written with that as a primary goal, in conjunction with handling the actual transactions. You own statement implicitly acknowedges that the currest MS kernals were NOT written that way.

Whether Apple got "lucky", or whether they were using a more secure basis, i.e. Unix for their code, your statment again implicitly admits that, in the current internet environment and the various "services" expected on it, then MS products are less secure. If that were not the case , then the timing of Apples creation of OS X would be moot.

Now if you are saying MS next product line will be more secure? Absolutely. Redmond realzes that the inherent insecurity of their product line could easily cause them to lose substantial amounts of market share, especially among businesses. However - in the here and now your state that premise that MS products, because their core code was written prior to the dot-com boom, is at a disadvantage to the Apple. I.E. the code, as currently applied, is less secure - let alone the systemics we have been discussing.

	30-03-2005 22:12									#77
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Fallacy. Asher, if that is important, then the date of design makes no difference. That is why some of the old banking systems are so f**king secure - they were written with that as a primary goal, in conjunction with handling the actual transactions. You own statement implicitly acknowedges that the currest MS kernals were NOT written that way.

There's nothing wrong with the MS kernels, there are some changes that need to be made to the default desktop environment configuration.

quote: Whether Apple got "lucky", or whether they were using a more secure basis, i.e. Unix for their code, your statment again implicitly admits that, in the current internet environment and the various "services" expected on it, then MS products are less secure. If that were not the case , then the timing of Apples creation of OS X would be moot.

My point was the basis of "Unix" makes no difference, because MacOS X is based on the Mach kernel, which hasn't had a security vulnerability in many years IIRC, and Windows XP is based on the NT kernel, which hasn't had a security vulnerability in many years. On the "basis" standpoint, both are on even ground from an established security standpoint.

The problem is mostly in the default configuration. Win32 has some design quirks, as did MS' RPC implementation, because they were designed before the internet exploded. They were not designed to be used in the way they are now, and there are some security implications to that.

MacOS 9 was the same way, and in MacOS X, Apple had an opportunity to design the environment more securely, with the internet in mind. The same will happen wholesale with Windows Longhorn, and in the meantime MS is implementing some changes to XP (like SP2) to make it more secure.

The original point is this: MacOS X will get viruses less, will get less malware...but that's the same reason it gets games less, and gets less software in general. It all plays down to marketshare.

Both MacOS X and Windows XP have had remotely exploitable vulnerabilities, but the crackers write the viruses and worms for Windows, not Mac.

	31-03-2005 01:04									#78
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Interesting debate. I'm not going to opine on the relative security of various systems as I have no idea, but it seems highly likely that (regardless of inherent vulnerability) the market share of Windows based systems yields the incentive for the vulnerabilities it has to be exploited, whereas the same vulnerability (if that were possible) in other systems would not be so exploited.

That's just common sense, and seems a perfectly reasonable theory. Yeah you can't be sure that the observed lack of problems with the Mac OS isn't due to super-security, but even if the OS were more secure then Windows (as I say, no idea) if it has but one hole then when the incentive is there to abuse it, it will be so abused.

Doesn't really seem fair to call for further 'proof'. Just wait and see what happens if the Mac market share increases.