23-03-2005 04:53									#31
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see this is what i don't like, laz has started a thread here to complain about the awful tories (blah etc.), and to people who live outside the UK, or don't really know what's going on, it all looks perfectly reasonable, but of course it's not the whole story is it, as laz knows full well. :/

first of all lets get the one thing laz is right about out of the way, making trespass a criminal offence is very bad idea for the reasons he stated, adverse possession rights are important and should be protected.

now there is a big fuss in this country about travellers, and there's been a lot of debate about them recently, started off mainly by the sun newspaper's campaign on the issue. now we all have our views on gypsies and the like, and the problems they cause, but i guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and in any case it's very much beside the point.

what has sparked this campaign (and debate) is the fact the deputy prime minister has ordered the police not to remove gypsies from illegal sites, basically to back off. he has also ordered local councils not to refuse gypsies planning permission because they might face 'racial discrimination' and (for the same reason) not to seek the removal of illegal sites through the courts. some enterprising souls in the gypsy community have also been using the human right act to protect their 'right' to camp where they like and ignore planning laws.

now why are people unhappy about this? well if someone puts up a garden shed or a minor extension to his house, then the council may refuse them permission, and if they have already built it, they can force them (through the courts if necessary) to remove it. however if travellers set up a ****-off huge illegal camp, trash the area, and cause problems for residents then the council or the police can't touch them. now what this boils down to (and for some reason this doesn't appear anywhere in laz's post...) is that there is one rule for ordinary people and another for a minority of travellers.

the tories want to make planning laws apply to everyone equally, what a bunch of bastards eh...

a couple of interesting facts

- the government recently spent £30 million (on top of a huge number of lottery grants) on sprucing up legal camp sites
- there are currently over 4000 illegal gypsy camps in the UK
- cleaning up after travellers at a site in nazeing (essex) has cost taxpayers an estimated £450,000

	23-03-2005 05:06									#32
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Cockney's post is a perfect example of how by picking on gypsies the tories let the genie out of the bottle and then people link it to a whole lot of other grievances with government

Which leads me to conclude many Britons are not smarter.

Notice the "they are getting something I'm not" theme and the "I have to obey the planning laws but they don't" themes in his post? He even managed to work in anti-discrimination laws. Well done!

Just what I was talking about

The same happened here.

	23-03-2005 05:09									#33
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AH, point out what is wrong with my post then.

or better yet come back when you know what you are talking about :/

	23-03-2005 05:17									#34
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why? they've got you hook line and sinker.

	23-03-2005 05:19									#35
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so you don't know what you are on about, glad we cleared that one up

	23-03-2005 05:25									#36
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Its more a case of all people have to do is compare my post about the political strategy to what you wrote to see for themselves exactly what I am talking about.

This is not about gypsies at all really. Its about moving voters like you to the right.

	23-03-2005 05:33									#37
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well you might be right about that. except the tories didn't start this whole thing, in fact until the sun started its campaign (which was a few weeks ago) the tories hardly had a word to say about the issue.

this isn't some grand plan hatched by michael howard

	23-03-2005 05:35									#38
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So are British gypsies the same as Eastern European gypsies (meaning a different ethnic group from northern India) or are they just white people who move around like trailer trash in America? Either way I don't see to man problems with making Tresspassing a crime since the US and Canada already do this and society seems to have survived.

	23-03-2005 05:36									#39
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That's how its done - they get their friends in the tabloid media and talkback raido to run it first, no smoking gun, then they pick it up

	23-03-2005 05:41									#40
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well seeing as how the sun has backed labour in two elections running i'd say your logic is a bit flawed...

oerdin, travellers aren't the same as romany gypsies, they tend to be from ireland, but they can come from anywhere.

	23-03-2005 05:50									#41
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The Sun backed Blair because Blair backed Bush on Iraq - all the 100 or so Murdoch media outlets around the world did that on orders from the boss.

Blair knows he has to keep backing Bush to keep the Murdoch empire on side. That could save him from the Tory onslaught. If Murdoch thinks Blair can deliver on his political and commercial interests he won't necessarily go in hard in support of the tories. Murdoch is completely mercenary about these things. He's backed Labor governments here too when it suited him.

Facing down the left of the party was crucial to Blair's electoral success and media support. Don't expect any British troop withdrawals from Iraq any time soon

	23-03-2005 05:54									#42
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what's your point? the sun has backed blair since 1997.

	23-03-2005 06:12									#43
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right - and Blair wants to keep that support - that is my point

	23-03-2005 06:18									#44
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BTW, AH, I didn't know you could provide such amazingly accurate political analysis (no sarcasm). Have you taken much time to ponder this strategy? Please tell more, it's an extremely interesting read

	23-03-2005 06:29									#45
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a minute ago the point was that this was some tory plan to move people to the right, which isn't the point anymore, because it isn't true...

so the point now is that murdoch wants to use his media empire to have influence in politics, well no [kidding] sherlock.

i don't see much of a point here i'm afraid.

	23-03-2005 06:36									#46
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quote: i don't see much of a point here i'm afraid.

So you discovered the secret of AH's posting...

	23-03-2005 06:39									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor BTW, AH, I didn't know you could provide such amazingly accurate political analysis (no sarcasm). Have you taken much time to ponder this strategy? Please tell more, it's an extremely interesting read

Er, as Cockney points out I've really got no idea....

But thanks, I do this assessment stuff for a living so I should be okay at it sometimes.

	23-03-2005 06:47									#48
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This unquestioned assumption that criminalizing trespassing and squatting is bad certainly is interesting.

	23-03-2005 06:52									#49
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probably to you - but we live in free countries

	23-03-2005 06:55									#51
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AH, thank goodness, i was almost starting to think you were being serious

DanS, it's all to do with english land law, i'm not sure i can explain it in simple terms (especially as i have to be up for work tomorrow!), so you're just going to have to take our word for it for now

	23-03-2005 06:59									#52
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start with Magna Carta and work forwards

	23-03-2005 07:01									#53
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quote: so you're just going to have to take our word for it for now

Rather, I'll reserve judgment for now.

	23-03-2005 08:10									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This unquestioned assumption that criminalizing trespassing and squatting is bad certainly is interesting.

In every state of the United States, people have adverse possession rights, where if you squat on an abandoned property for long enough (and declare it to be your own property, etc, etc), the land becomes yours.

So you don't get criminally charged for the trespass or squatting after the land transfers to you.

	23-03-2005 12:09									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison John Howard, Michael Howard...no coincidence methinks

I said the same thing previously

	23-03-2005 12:39									#56
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Sounds like Howard's trying to push through a 21st century adaptation of the enclosure acts

I think that if he is a true conservative he should be trying to "conserve" what commons England has left...

I only read British news rarely but from what I hear he's been aping about human rights legislation of late...

One note about Murdoch... he's not an uncompromising ideologue. He'll support anyone or thing that makes him money. Just look at how he broke into the Chinese market.

Murdoch's three represents: money, money, and money.

	23-03-2005 12:54									#57
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Howard has also suggested that the gun control laws 'go too far'.

****.

	23-03-2005 12:57									#58
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ah yes he wanted to ease (or lift?) the ban on handguns... pure idiocy.

	23-03-2005 13:33									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Just look at how he broke into the Chinese market.

He did?

	23-03-2005 14:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II ah yes he wanted to ease (or lift?) the ban on handguns... pure idiocy.

Well, actually I think they have gone a bit too far. When it gets to the stage where olympic shooters can't even practice...

But it's definitely not a vote winner except amongst a handful of voter.