26-03-2005 22:27									#61
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Yes, they are spending too much money else where, when they should be spending it treating water.

	26-03-2005 22:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe "cepting that given a free country the likelihood of reform as the horrors of the devastation become self evident is easier than say in a repressive authoritarian state who's primary perhaps even sole concern is the welfare of the state machinery. Ohh and by the way, Yay, Kyoto Treaty for rewarding this behavior!!!

Not necessarily.

An authoriatarina gov't can respond quickly to a problem, if it chooses to address it, much more faster than say a government controlled by rich corporations.

	26-03-2005 22:29									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Yes, they are spending too much money else where, when they should be spending it treating water.

So you would take money from health services and schools and launch on a binge of water treatment plants?

China has a lot of problems with pollution. It is dealing with it, but the problem won't be solved overnight. Having said that, I would agree in general that clean water is a basic right and it should be a priority.

	26-03-2005 22:33									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So you would take money from health services and schools and launch on a binge of water treatment plants? China has a lot of problems with pollution. It is dealing with it, but the problem won't be solved overnight. Having said that, I would agree in general that clean water is a basic right and it should be a priority.

It's simple. You tax the poluters and you use the proceeds to clean up the polution. And from what I read they aren't dealing with the problem in any real way. Look at Dashi's article. They don't seem to care about providing clean water to the entire poputation.

	26-03-2005 22:36									#65
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This is why you should ignore Dashie boy.

How can you say they don't care when they are spending $2.1 billion? That's a lot of money in China.

	26-03-2005 22:44									#66
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Isn't it 1.3% of GDP like it says in Dashi's article? 2.1 billion doesn't really mean anything. 1.1 billion is a lot, but it's not nearly enough. They need to spend more, period.

	26-03-2005 22:53									#67
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How much is enough? $2.2 billion? $2.3 billion? Will $100 billion over five years solve the problem? I don't know.

What's more important is to educate people in China to recognise the severe problems that exist.

And I wouldn't pay any creedence to articles posted by Dashi. They're usually a waste of space.

	27-03-2005 01:37									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Not necessarily. An authoriatarina gov't can respond quickly to a problem, if it chooses to address it, much more faster than say a government controlled by rich corporations.

That's a huge IF.

While an authoritarian govt has the muscle to make things happen, the cavalier attitude toward the sanctity of life will ensure it will never make the short list of things to do.

Unlike a decentralized govt that has many agendas to pay attention to. Those of the corps as well as those of the citizenry.

	27-03-2005 01:44									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not really. It took us almost a hundred years to begin to clean up our mess. And the majority party in this country still denies the seriousness of the problem and seeks to continue the devastation.

Nice try, except by every measurable index our environmental quality has improved dramatically despite the commeasurate increase in population since 1970. A desire of the people and hence mandated by law via clean air and water acts.

But by all means we should export our manufacutring to the likes of China where they give a rats patoot regarding the quality of life and environ.

Lets hear it for the state who doesn't give a sh1te about its people (and is not accountable to its people) and the likelihood of it actually giving a damn about the environment.

	27-03-2005 01:46									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's right, Ogie - why don't we add an extra 1 billion people to the US, and see how your system holds up? Oh yeah, at least 1 billion extra SUVs, lovely.

Cry me a freakin river. While your at it put in some desalination plants so as to ensure you have something to drink.

	27-03-2005 01:50									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Ah, the old "China has so many people, it's not responsible for anything it does" ploy (add with a trademark "let's talk about the US instead" diversion ). I just don't see the connection to Ogie's post.

I hope this kind of thinking isn't common among the mainlanders.

	27-03-2005 03:16									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai How much is enough? $2.2 billion? $2.3 billion? Will $100 billion over five years solve the problem? I don't know. What's more important is to educate people in China to recognise the severe problems that exist.

Educating the people? What do you think China is, a democracy? Why would the state educate the people? They don't have to do that. All they have to do is keep the water clean, they don't have to worry about educating the people to do that since they have all the power.

And I don't know how much is enough, but the Chinese don't seem to care about how much is enough. They spend 2.1 billion and that's either enough or it's not. If they want to spend enough they simply need to spend more until the problem is solved.

	27-03-2005 09:34									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This is why you should ignore Dashie boy. How can you say they don't care when they are spending $2.1 billion? That's a lot of money in China.

Doesn't have anything to do with caring. It's all about image. You obviously don't understand China.

	27-03-2005 09:41									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I hope this kind of thinking isn't common among the mainlanders.

It's the simple flawed logic I usually encounter with students. Often it's because their English is so poor that they can't better express their opinions, but part of it is the way they are taught to think by their government controlled education system that encourages diverting the issue rather than addressing the problem. This is similar to the whole throw money at it approach that Tingkai favors. It doesn't solve the problem, but it make people look away from it by creating an illusion that it is solved.

	27-03-2005 09:49									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai How much is enough? $2.2 billion? $2.3 billion? Will $100 billion over five years solve the problem? I don't know. What's more important is to educate people in China to recognise the severe problems that exist.

You were earlier trying to convince us that the problem is solved by spending money. Now you say that money isn't the solution. Make up your mind, man.

	27-03-2005 14:05									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If you ask me the US is more communist with it's environmental policies. Poluting the water that people drink so that profit can be made is capitalism. When you make laws to protect the environment at the expense of profit that's not capitalism. The question is how much can nations in this globalised economy afford to protect the environment with the increased competition to produce at low cost.

Let me correct you there . Capitalism means that any provable harm done to anyone has to be redressed , and the guilty punished . If I pollute/poison the air near your house , and you get asthama thanks to that , I'm liable . Polluting drinking water is very definitely anti-capitalist . When you make laws to protect people from harm ( thorugh the use of force or fraud ) , you are being a capitalist .

Capitalism simply means the right to do anything you want as long as you don't harm anyone else ( through the use of force or fraud ) .

And if hurting the environment does not hurt a human being , then there is no reason why it should be disallowed .

	27-03-2005 18:55									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai How much is enough? $2.2 billion? $2.3 billion? Will $100 billion over five years solve the problem? I don't know.

The anwser is simple. You spend what you have to for as long as you have to in order to provide clean drinking water to to everyone in the country. That means they have to regulate industrial pollution, they have to treat sewage before poring it into rivers, they have to have water treatment plants to treat drinking water, and they need a safe delivery system which doesn't recontaminate the water once it has been treated. If China didn't spend $30 billion per year on defense and instead diverted $10 billion per year towards providing clean drinking water then I'm sure they'd reach their goals relatively quickly. It's not that China doesn't have the resources it's just that the one party dictatorship just doesn't give a rat's ass about the enviroment and clean water for their people.

	27-03-2005 19:08									#78
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Not exactly topical, but one the **** will be on the verge of hitting the fan, don't you think the Chinese will heavily invest in de-salinization of sea water?

Nearly all of the population the CCP cares abour lives on the coast, so such technologies would quench the thirst of all people "of importance". And there are already dramatic progresses made by Israel, despite Israel having very little money/research potential in comparison to china.

	27-03-2005 19:14									#79
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The US and Europe don't even use de-sal plants. To expensive. A few rich Arab oil states use de-sal but they are the only ones which I can recall.

	27-03-2005 19:47									#80
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Israel has recently made a breakthrough, making de-sal much cheaper. Israel has traditionally invested quite some money in research about it, and I don't see why the Chinese wouldn't, once they become seriously threatened by thirst.

	27-03-2005 20:57									#81
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Let me correct you there . Capitalism means that any provable harm done to anyone has to be redressed , and the guilty punished . If I pollute/poison the air near your house , and you get asthama thanks to that , I'm liable . Polluting drinking water is very definitely anti-capitalist . When you make laws to protect people from harm ( thorugh the use of force or fraud ) , you are being a capitalist . Capitalism simply means the right to do anything you want as long as you don't harm anyone else ( through the use of force or fraud ) . And if hurting the environment does not hurt a human being , then there is no reason why it should be disallowed .

That definition of capitalism makes less sense than any that I've seen.

	27-03-2005 21:02									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Not exactly topical, but one the **** will be on the verge of hitting the fan, don't you think the Chinese will heavily invest in de-salinization of sea water? Nearly all of the population the CCP cares abour lives on the coast, so such technologies would quench the thirst of all people "of importance". And there are already dramatic progresses made by Israel, despite Israel having very little money/research potential in comparison to china.

They will probably just let people suffer and die.

	28-03-2005 00:03									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Educating the people? What do you think China is, a democracy? Why would the state educate the people? They don't have to do that. All they have to do is keep the water clean, they don't have to worry about educating the people to do that since they have all the power.

To solve this problem, China needs to take a two-pronged approach.

Spending money provides an immediate solution to the some of the problem. Is it enough? I don't know, but China is doing something (and remember that the $2.1 billion is for rural projects. We don't know how much is being spent on urban projects).

But education is necessary for the long-term. The local government officials need to learn that water pollution poison the land, increases health care costs, and slows down economic growth (loss work hours, etc). They need to be taught why reducing water pollution is in their own self-interest and that way environmental laws are more likely to be enforced.

The same applies to factory owners and the rich. They need to educated about the cost of pollution and how that cost will affect their pocketbooks.

There also has to be education of the people in general.

Education by itself won't solve the problem, but it is part of the solution even in an authoritarian society.

	28-03-2005 00:14									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The anwser is simple. You spend what you have to for as long as you have to in order to provide clean drinking water to to everyone in the country. That means they have to regulate industrial pollution, they have to treat sewage before poring it into rivers, they have to have water treatment plants to treat drinking water, and they need a safe delivery system which doesn't recontaminate the water once it has been treated.

It would be nice if it was that simple.

Government regulations need effective enforcement and that requires a civil service that can deliver results w/t corruption and an effective court system. The problem facing China is that too many civil servants are corrupt, a problem China is tackling, with limited results. China also needs more lawyers and judges plus effective policing.

It's not an easy task. Even the Brits failed in Hong Kong, even though they had 150 years of colonial rule. No one drinks water straight from the tap and only in the past 5 - 10 years has Hong Kong stopped pumping sewage straight into Victoria Harbour. The situation is getting better, but it is far from perfect.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If China didn't spend $30 billion per year on defense and instead diverted $10 billion per year towards providing clean drinking water then I'm sure they'd reach their goals relatively quickly.

I agree completely.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It's not that China doesn't have the resources it's just that the one party dictatorship just doesn't give a rat's ass about the enviroment and clean water for their people.

All government's waste too much money on military spending. Look at the money the US wastes on its military and useless wars. Americans, and the world for that matter, would be much better off it cut defence spending by a third. If the US did that it would still be the most powerful country in the world.

Or the idiots in Pakistan and India buying F-16s because the other guy is buying F-16s.

It's all about big boys who want to have expensive toys to make themselves feel powerful.

	28-03-2005 00:46									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Not necessarily. An authoriatarina gov't can respond quickly to a problem, if it chooses to address it, much more faster than say a government controlled by rich corporations.

	28-03-2005 06:10									#86
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Tingkai,

I can't believe what a China apologist you are. There is nothing hard about cleaning up your mess.

	28-03-2005 06:20									#87
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I can't believe I'm agreeing with Kid

	28-03-2005 10:32									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Tingkai, I can't believe what a China apologist you are. There is nothing hard about cleaning up your mess.

An apologist?

Nah, I'm just pointing out to the difficulties China faces.

It would be nice if people could just snap their fingers and solve problems in an instant, but it doesn't work like that in the real world.

	28-03-2005 15:48									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They will probably just let people suffer and die.

The peasants = yes
The city-dwellers who produce serious money = no

Why does everybody assume that a dictatorial regime will let its assets go, just because these assets are people?

	28-03-2005 18:23									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Nah, I'm just pointing out to the difficulties China faces.

Bolony. They don't have to figure out how to do it. They have to decide to do it.

Spiffor,

quote: The peasants = yes The city-dwellers who produce serious money = no Why does everybody assume that a dictatorial regime will let its assets go, just because these assets are people?

I meant only the peasants.