08-04-2005 02:24									#31
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Perhaps when bases revolt, instead of going to another faction, they become their own, randomly choosen from a list of like 40 subfactions...

	08-04-2005 02:47									#32
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Commy, that's a great idea! Make revolts more common, and watch the map splinter into the Big (Original 7) factions with lots of offshoots springing up (new 5, plus possible others).

It makes more sense than a base switching allegiences to another, totally different faction halfway across the globe, and it'd add spice. Plus... nothing comes close to the Original 7. Even the AX 5 are mostly justified as offshoots of the first ones, or responding to Planet events, making it weird to start the game with them.

This is a fun game-play idea because you automatically have 7 big factions, and then you can play political games with, or just work to conquer, the offshoots. (Revolts would have to be more common... but if it's well integrated (not totally random) that wouldn't have to be a bad thing).

There could be Council votes to recognize offshoots, Coucil votes to return offshoot bases to the mother country (which may or may not be cooperated with!), and all sorts of neat stuff.

It makes more sense than a map starting with four versions of Morgan with slightly different flavors, anyhow.

Just musing...

	08-04-2005 02:57									#33
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And you don't even have to use a revolution (revolt) on this one... just if the civ gets too big and has - let's say - a penalty in support.... there you go.
But if you put in some kind of Sub-Factions which will be chosen for the new "state", then you should have their leader in the game before the seperation takes place. Maybe this is another good feature: having "leaders" in your civ which may help you in the beginning with their personality/special abilities (like Generals etc. in other games), but if the game moves on, they may get your biggest opponent in holding the state together...

	08-04-2005 03:18									#34
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The revolt/parties within factions idea is cool, but I was wondering... are there any more really original faction ideas? Like what kind of ideologies they represent? Usually the stuff I find on networknode.org features magic users or new aliens or robots... no truly new ideologies or anything like the guys in SMAC and SMAX.

	08-04-2005 03:59									#35
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Lular: The Usurpers are Revolting!

Good idea. But could there be some way to play as one of these subfactions? What would be the nature of the subfactions: weakened versions of the parent faction's stats? cross between the parent and any other faction in particular? Would a breakoff ever be a SMACX faction? What are the chances of a breakoff surviving long or winning the game? Votes to recognize offshoots I like, but not sure about the possibility mentioned after that. I like the idea of advisors with abilities, who split off. I wouldn't mind too much if the game resorts to magic. A robot faction is a thought. Maybe splitoffs would just be drone versions of the other factions. Maybe midgame a group of native lifeforms could somehow turn into a faction.

	08-04-2005 04:07									#36
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Well, one of the reasons you can't find more of these "original" factions may be because of the parameters given to modify/build a faction. With the parameters given by ACAX it is really hard (almost impossible) to build something new that is "completely different" AND intelligent/reasonable. I guess that the parameters were defined after the basic ideas of the (7 SMAC) factions were set and not vice versa.
On the other hand it is hard to think of other human based themed factions in "real life"... isn't it ?!
Unfortunately - even though this is one of the best things of SMAC - it is very very well planned regarding "the near future". It is still SF, but not that way-out crazy

	08-04-2005 04:10									#37
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Brent: I imagined that the game would start (normally) with the Original 7. Then, a base revolt would form a similar faction (Gaia begets Cult) or an opposition (Morgan begets Hive).

There could be a list of whatever number of factions that could be created, and they would be tinkered with in the SE tables just like any homemade faction. Or, the game could randomly generate a +1 somwhere on the table and -1 somehwere else, as compared to the Parent faction.

And I agree about the lack of "new" factions. Even the SMAX 5 were pretty silly if you want them to be around at PlanetFall (though some make lots of sense a few dozen turns after... which the idea we're tossing around would enable).

Really, I haven't thought these ideas through... they're just fun to toss around and think about at work!

Splinter factions could be designed to happen to the #1 player most, but that might be dangerous since lots of players resent being punished for winning... but if it was done well it could be a lot more elegant than corruption. If the empire falls apart because it's too big to manage, instead of just "too big" by the rules, then it makes sense... you can fight to keep a big sprawler together, or work with an ultra efficient tiny state, or strike the balance...

One day, folks... someone will make a game that learns from SMAC/AX. A spiritual sequel, if not a real one.
*sigh*

	08-04-2005 04:28									#38
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Do the Pirates make sense at Planetfall?

Doesn't GalCiv2 basically have a unit workshop?

	08-04-2005 15:46									#39
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About subfactions, I think that the leaders of subfractions could be strengthen from factions that want to break you.

Ex: Yang dislike Lai and therfore give support to X leader of the Y party. This will of course cost resources (money production and so fort) for Yang. The splinter fraction would have the same idiology as Yang.

There should also be a "random" chance for rebellion under your and other factions rule. Bases that starve, low effecient, and a bad runed econmoy should cause splinter factions to ocur.

Well better speling this time I guess. My first post did try to get this facts out...

	08-04-2005 19:15									#40
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quote: About subfactions, I think that the leaders of subfractions could be strengthen from factions that want to break you.

That's a great idea! This will open a wide range of diplomatic features. It's a bit like the good old "Balance of Power"
Implementing some kind of sub-factions can be done by "subleaders" within the faction. I'm not that good in issues of history, but as far as I know even (most of) the greatest leaders had their own and well-known "helpers", didn't they? So these "helpers" could/should be part of the starting faction, maybe with their own/different interests and point of views regarding the factions goals.
If there is a way to introduce something like ministers in ACAX you can set in place (as soon as you have the prerequired techs and maybe a "building" like e.g. a "Palace of Justice" for a Ministry of Justice and its Minister of Justice) with some kind of bonus depending of the subleader you put in charge....
This way you may be able to get theses subleaders into the game and another twist in optimising your state with its upcoming chances of seperation.
Just a quick idea...

	08-04-2005 19:32									#41
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Should you be able to choose which advisors you have? There probably wouldn't be enough choices for that. But you could rank them, and only some or one of them would add to your faction's abilities. Or maybe there would be enough choices to choose advisors. There could be several categories, and choices in each category that treat the realm of the category differently.

	08-04-2005 19:58									#42
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I'd say there should be e.g. 10 subleaders for 5 ministers or so.
Or even better: there are 10 leaders and you may even choose your "main-leader" you are playing from the beginning (and this cannot be changed anymore) and use the rest during the game for the ministers . Even firing/exchanging during game may be an option. Maybe including diplomatic consequences, e.g. you're Gaian and your "more knowledge driven" Secretary of Education is being exchanged as an upcoming seperation arises. But this subleader had a very good relation built up with the University, so your diplomatic relation to the University will suffer, too.
Complexity rising ...

	08-04-2005 20:03									#43
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Maybe there's say ten choices, each with their own view on every subject, and you choose who to put in each of five positions out of those ten total.

	08-04-2005 20:06									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Brent Maybe there's say ten choices, each with their own view on every subject, and you choose who to put in each of five positions out of those ten total.

That's basically what I meant to say

quote: I'd say there should be e.g. 10 subleaders for 5 ministers or so.

	09-04-2005 01:40									#45
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I always thought they should add this to civ...but I'm more dedicated to SMAX, civ just gets...boring...no idealogies, pretty much every game is the same...

	09-04-2005 03:34									#46
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My original idea was based on this assertion by this review:

quote: The Data Angels? The Cult of Planet? The PIRATES? I shuddered as I thought I was looking at Alpha Centauri 90210. The original factions of SMAC were believable, mature archetypes--groups you could actually envision emerging in a far-flung colony, at least if you've watched Planet of the Apes enough times. Merchants, librarians, religious fanatics. The factions of SMACX, on the other hand, seemed to have been drawn out of...well, let's just say I haven't seen a line up like that since I stopped watching movies on USA ("Okay, so there's this hacker, and her buddy sails the seven seas").

The review ultimately gives the factions a good review, since Alien Crossfire was made under the aegis of Firaxis and Sid Meier, after all.

Anyhow, are there any other mature archetypes one can imagine? Or have all of the big ideas for ideologies been used up?

By the way, I reject that University was in any way librarians, or rather, Librarians.

	09-04-2005 03:49									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MysticWind Anyhow, are there any other mature archetypes one can imagine? Or have all of the big ideas for ideologies been used up?

Well, the only one I can imagine right now (and since it's pretty late my thinking is currently all funky) are, shall we say, Primitives. The opposite of the University and the Consciousness - seeking to return mankind to its natural roots (whatever those are; presumably living in caves and eating raw meat), perhaps the only time in mankind's existence that humanity was truly pure (or so they'll have you believe).

Of course, the science hit they'll take would make the Believers look like a progressive thinktank.

	09-04-2005 04:16									#48
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Get rid of ideology based factions. Use continuations of Earth Civs. Have several choices for leader for each civ. Each is based on an ideology. The characters you didn't choose are your advisors. Advisors can leave your Civ. Then you won't be balanced.

I think there's a good case for ideologies being used up. Or you could just base each one on an actual political party from Earth: Fascists, Communists, Fundamentalists, Greens, there's at least dozens of choices you could use, but would they work for the game?

The Primitives would have to be nonplayer degenerate splitoffs. Can anyone think of any true advantages to give them? Maybe they could handle Planet's environment better than anyone else? Maybe Planet befriends them and helps them out supernaturally?

	09-04-2005 07:34									#49
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quote: Originally posted by H.Humpel Well, one of the reasons you can't find more of these "original" factions may be because of the parameters given to modify/build a faction.

I think another reason might be because everyone always thinks the game needs to be played on Planet, which then constricts gameplay because of the nature of Planet. If you were to place the Factions on a different planet (i.e. different ecosystem/ environment/ sociological context) why I think it would give rise to more diverse/ viable Faction ideologies. One example would be my Beta Lyrae mod where I replaced the 8th Faction with something significantly different. This became a viable approach because I created a believable storyline whereby the involved Factions were placed in this new environment.
Another really good idea is Ogie Oglethorpe's Ringworld idea. Here again your creating a whole new environment - so create viable Factions for that environment! An example of this in the Ringworld mod would be because the "Fall of the Cities" has occured on Ringworld (and if you don't understand the reference then read "The Ringworld Engineers" by Larry Niven) then the "Green" SE option should become the "Machine" SE option whereby Factions that are mechanically inclined have a greater chance of "capturing" the relics from the former rulers of the Ringworld (i.e. the 8th Faction units that are the leftover rogue machines from Pril's people).
There are many different options, if you simply think outside of the box....


D

	09-04-2005 20:27									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Darsnan There are many different options, if you simply think outside of the box....

That's true... well, my point/approach is based on "staying inside the box" .
In this case there are hardly new ways or basic factions to find.
But when moving out of the box, you really need a lot of good thinking and ideas and try to stay some kind of realistic.
If it was too way-out SF I think ACAX wouldn't be that great (IMHO).
But I guess/believe this might be done some-how...

	10-04-2005 09:20									#51
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more factions, more revolts, more units, more _____?

you guys fail to realize that more is not neccesarily better for a game

	10-04-2005 09:43									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 more factions, more revolts, more units, more _____? you guys fail to realize that more is not neccesarily better for a game

I agree with your statement that more is not necessarily better. However, from my experience in the PBEM world why I have witnessed the same Factions being played a myriad of ways, the only difference being the players who played the same Faction. So if you then expand the base number of Factions, you then increase exponentially the ways to play the game, which then increases again the ways/ methods to play the game! Therefore, if the Factional expansion is done correctly, the game benefits significantly. Its worth the effort/ risk, IMO.


D

	10-04-2005 09:52									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

then it will have to be a whole new game. redesigning a game to accomidate more factions would be silly, and a minor technical point. I think the most id like to see is 14 because each of the 14 is different enough to exsist within the same game. i doubt that youd be able to create 20 more factions with different personalities.

	10-04-2005 10:00									#54
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A sequel should almost always have more of everything. A Civ sequel in particular should have more civs. What should be the focus of a SMAC sequel if not new Factions and still have it be a sequel to the original game? My best answer to that is expand to elsewhere in the Alpha Centauri system and maybe into interstellar space. Space stations you can play on may be required. Or maybe Earth got itself together, and sends a new colony ship after SMAC1 ends? Or you could have SMAC -1, a prequel about the progenitors.

	10-04-2005 14:51									#55
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jesus, this is why sequels almost always suck. youre like the people that asked for episode 1

	10-04-2005 18:16									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Brent Or you could have SMAC -1, a prequel about the progenitors.

which is basically Civ 1... isn't it???
It is long ago that I played Civ 1 (or 2), but isn't the main goal to send a new colony to Alpha Centauri ???
There we are in SMAC... I always thought it was meant to be some kind of sequel to Civ.

	10-04-2005 18:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 more factions, more revolts, more units, more _____? you guys fail to realize that more is not neccesarily better for a game

That's so true. It's never like more = better.
OK, I think there are two ways to talk about "more":

1. more faction etc. (as you "proposed" it)
well, I think there are some thing that would be nice to see in ACAX, like more KINDs of factions (like the ALIEN in ACAX, a new one might be AI) and some other of these "mores". But of course, you can easily go over the top with this and the game would lose its "magic". Balancing things like these are very hard to do!

2. more as a finer way of adjustments
with this "more" I mean a finer way to set things up, e.g.: PLANET just ranges from +3 to -3 and I think (for all the Social factors) a scale from -100 to 100 (or -255 to 256 for the computer freaks ) might be better. Sometimes the steps are too hard/high or easy/low.
Same for the things like "interested in power" etc. in the faction files. Just a yes/no isn't enough (IMHO).
Especially in term of diplomacy a finer structure would be nice, too!
This way, you get more choices and a more complex system without using more categories.

Just a quick thought which is hard to put in the right words for a non-native English speaker...

	10-04-2005 18:39									#58
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@thread
Actuly I don't want any new big factions, I just want better diplomatics and even more politics. To remove the ideology based factions as Brent suggested make me shiver. The fundation of SMAC is the ideology based factions, and therefore I prefere a better political arena and a better trading bord.

This is the reason why I am suggesting that there only should be seven big factions. Then let the "great leaders" influense other to spring there own factions.

Subleaders could be good no more then 2 per faction is needed, IMHO they should only appear when a subfactions does.

@MRT144
let people dream

Last edited by waab on 10-04-2005 at 18:47

	11-04-2005 05:39									#59
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SMAC -1 would not be about humans on Earth, it would be about the alien progenitors introduced in SMACX.

	11-04-2005 07:43									#60
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More is not better...seven factions, seven idealogies...it works, its simple, you can get attached to seven people...you can understand, remember, and really play seven factions...adding more just ruins the point...

Furthermore, having factions that are "communists, fascists, socialists, libertarians, democratists..." would destroy one very good aspect of SMAC...having factions based on idealogy, while maybe not the most realistic, makes the game what it is...you can't get attached to some Russian dude and some American guy and some Chinese fro...but you can get attached to someone like Yang and Morgan...maybe you don't like them, but you really know them, you understand them, they are what makes the game really deep...SMAC is made to get us away from reality, to look into the future that we can shape and control...bringing in factions from our lifetime and our experiences just depresses the game and ruins all hopes of the game really being successful...

If you want real nations from earth, make a mod for it, but I don't think the game should be made that way...