31-03-2005 00:01									#61
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DanS - we are not talking about an honest airing of facts. We are talking indoctrination. Read the second link, and then start googling the moth experiment. The lies about the flaws about it have been repeated so many times that they are now being accepted as fact.

If it were simply a debate, that is fine. But it is what we put in the textbooks children read. They do NOT have the requisite judgement to sort these issues out, that is the job of adults. The fact is that some of the embryology issues the Creative Design people are quoting consist of very obsolete research, often a century old!. Shameful. But that does not mean that modern embryology, with genetic markers, DNA, etc. is disproved, it's the old straw man technique.

Let's put it in the matter of social studies. Let's put the Al Jezira's spin on history and current events into our Junior High Schools. What - we cannot do that, it is propoganda. Exactly my point. The Creative Design people deliberately go out of their way to find straw men, i.e. obsolete science, and use that to cast doubt on an entire field. If you think this is a problem - look at the polls and American hideous lack of Scientific Knowledge. Why do you think we are importing people from all over the world instead of creating our own homegrown experts. That is one reason of a very complex set of circumstances.

Mississippi does count - and how do your schools stack up? The prosecution rests.

	31-03-2005 00:06									#62
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We never went over Creationism in biology class.

	31-03-2005 00:17									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Why are science magazines so political and defensive nowadays? It's not just Scientific American; I've noticed the same thing with Discover and National Geographic. How many more defenses of evolution am I going to have to slog through to get to something interesting?

Basically the forces of darkness have massed and are continuing their assualt on all things scientific and/or educational. Thus those people who would like to advance science and improve public education are forced to strike back with articles based upon sound science.

	31-03-2005 00:20									#64
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Likewise, it was only given a passing mention. I'd be annoyed if it was ever taught in British schools as a rational theory, and if I were a biology teacher would point blank refuse to teach it as a rational theory.

	31-03-2005 00:22									#65
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Do they have Bible classes in your local Public Schools? I know they did in certain areas, I have a coworker who lived in Mississippi until 10 years ago and her district did. I also saw the same thing in West Viriginia.
Then take that in the context of Che's post.

	31-03-2005 00:23									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos You are all operating on faith.

The only assumption in science is that the Universe is an objective entity that can be studied (as opposed to some crazy philosophers who think the universe is an illusion...). Anyone who thinks scientists operate on faith does not know what science is.

	31-03-2005 00:24									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We never went over Creationism in biology class.

but there are zealots out there who want to. and thats wrong.

	31-03-2005 00:24									#68
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Do they have Bible classes in your local Public Schools?

I never saw them. That doesn't mean they don't exist though.

	31-03-2005 00:25									#69
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We had a Bible as literature class in my highschool, which included, maong other things, modern retellings of the story. Jesus Christ Superstar was supposed to have been taught, but the year I was finally going to be allowed to take it, the teacher decided to cut it out, because it was blasphemous.

	31-03-2005 00:29									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We never went over Creationism in biology class.

Good because creationism has nothing to do with biology or science so it doesn't belong in a biology or a science class. Go to a religious Sunday school if you want to learn religious beliefs.

	31-03-2005 00:31									#71
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i had a bible as literature class too. it was pretty interesting. bot not once did i ever feel like it was indoctrination and at the time i was a staunch athiest and was pissed about the whole thing. looking back now i can see the merit of the class.

on the other hand i am far more religious today, am christian (albiet not the best one) and trying to put creationism in line with evolution in teaching is nuts. even intelligent design is an attempt to work god back into purely scientific realms.

	31-03-2005 00:35									#72
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 ... attempt to work god back into purely scientific realms.

I never had a real problem with including God and science in the same breath. Learning about science always strengthened my faith.

	31-03-2005 00:48									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I never had a real problem with including God and science in the same breath. Learning about science always strengthened my faith.

	31-03-2005 00:53									#74
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quote: If we are going by peer review, I am afraid science is very far behind religion. By like the 10s of billions.

sorry, just a small, niggling point...

behind by tens of billions? most interesting, since there are at most what, 8 billion people tops, in the world? maybe 9 billion since civ started?

	31-03-2005 00:53									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I never had a real problem with including God and science in the same breath. Learning about science always strengthened my faith.

youve never had any problem? well its nice to know youre the measure we should base all our government decisions on.

"well dinodoc doesnt have a problem with nuclear war, so were gonna launch a few nukes at china, to rattle their cage"

the thing is dino, youve always been able to make personal decisions for yourself, without guidence about your faith when learning science.

now people on the religious right want to make those decisions for us.

	31-03-2005 00:56									#76
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* DinoDoc is slightly bemused that people are hostile to the thought someone can be both a Christian and have a belief in science

I wonder if anyone told Georges Lemaitre.

	31-03-2005 00:58									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Odin

Don't be a dick. One can have awe at the wonder of the universe explained through science and then take that awe and put it on the entity that created that amazing universe. Many scientists do, and I did also when I was still a Christian.

	31-03-2005 00:59									#78
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it's possible to be a christian and a scientist, a christian scientist, and/or a Christian Scientist.

frankly, the only ones that irritate me are those who purport to be "scientists", often of the fundie religious type, and ignore most real evidence and twist the rest to support their beliefs.

	31-03-2005 01:04									#79
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i agree, there are many christian scirntists, just not very many fundie zealot scientists

	31-03-2005 01:06									#80
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I don't see how a person can be a scientist and a Christian who actually believes the stuff in the Bible.

	31-03-2005 01:07									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed it's possible to be a christian and a scientist, a christian scientist, and/or a Christian Scientist. frankly, the only ones that irritate me are those who purport to be "scientists", often of the fundie religious type, and ignore most real evidence and twist the rest to support their beliefs.

And that is the real danger of these "scientists".

	31-03-2005 01:08									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin And that is the real danger of these "scientists".

* Odin starts bashing Behe with a shoe...

	31-03-2005 01:09									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I don't see how a person can be a scientist and a Christian who actually believes the stuff in the Bible.

Not all Christians believe the Bible literally. I never did. Many see it as either allegorical or the flawed product of men or both.

	31-03-2005 01:10									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I don't see how a person can be a scientist and a Christian who actually believes the stuff in the Bible.

Quite easily. Unless you plan on arguing that a Catholic priest doesn't believe the stuff in the Bible.

	31-03-2005 01:14									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Quite easily. Unless you plan on arguing that a Catholic priest doesn't believe the stuff in the Bible.

It is not very scientific to believe that some Jewish philospher rose from the dead and could walk on water.

	31-03-2005 01:22									#86
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thats a matter of faith not science

	31-03-2005 01:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 thats a matter of faith not science

I consider faith as an impediment to science.

	31-03-2005 01:39									#88
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DinoDoc - thanks for the honest answer, that you never saw the classes. Some would instead turn that into a counter-attack.

Any of you hassling DinoDoc claiming one cannot reconcile religious beliefs and science. You're being just as intolerant as the Christian fundamentalists, but in the opposite direction. Intolerance, by whatever pretty clothing it drapes itself in, is still intolerance. I have met many devout scientists, and have envied them (in a good sense) their faith. Just because you cannot conceive it, don't ridicule those who can.

Now if DinoDoc claimed to be a modern evolutionary biologist and a Biblical literalist, i.e. the earth is 5000+ years old - I would grant that is irreconcilable due to basic premises. Otherwise, Horatio, there are more things....

	31-03-2005 01:43									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I consider faith as an impediment to science.

If you believe in a hands-off God, it's not, or even one who only intervenes rarely. It is completely possibly to reconcile irreconcilable beliefs.

	31-03-2005 01:56									#90
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Faith can coexist with science but fundimentalist and people who believe the Bible is the literal truth of god can't be trusted to make any desicions relating to science. Average Joe's who believe in a god but who are not raving lunatics are welcome.